Cavalier dominance 2000-Present

[Fincis]

That's not a style of show; that's simply being better at doing something than someone else. Rosemont is accomplishing it more consistently, but it's not because they've decided that music is unimportant (to use the usual sour grape whine (wine?....) heard around here every July...).

First of all, I never said anything about how they program music.

Secondly, it is a style of show. While they have a stable design program, it doesn't mean they're better at doing it than anyone else (I do think they are smarter about it in many aspects though). I know of the recent success and give them all credit, but I think of it as different, not better.

Take this last year. Phantom and The Cavaliers had very different styles. Yes, Cavaliers won, but Phantom was very close. Each had their own strengths and weaknesses. Here's my opinion, but I see Cavaliers GE as more programatic and Phantom's as more emotional.

Here's another example of GE and design. Cadets 2005 and Cavaliers 2002 both excelled in GE. Cavaliers GE was so unmistakable, it would be hard to not notice it. Cadets GE left more to the imagination and the show was a completely different concept. Both did very well and were better than their competition that year. That doesn't mean though that The Cavaliers shows are better than everyone elses or vice versa. It's just different styles of show and yes, each corps has their own.

That said, I'm glad that there's a variety of styles out there. It would be very sad if everyone programmed a cookie-cutter show to the judges sheets. It's awesome to see new designs and levels of performance no matter what the style.

[JayM]

Re: not better, just different

With the current system in which all of the groups mentioned in this thread currently compete, yes, different means better. Clearly, the Cavaliers' shows from the past 7 years have been superior (in all but 2 instances) to other performances fielded within the same circuit. That is the one clear fact we have here. Those shows are better, because the only ruler by which we have to measure the inherently biased ambiguous word "better", is the DCI judging system.

Five of the last seven years in DCI competition, the Cavaliers have had better shows than the competition. Please refute me.

[Fincis]

Re: not better, just different

With the current system in which all of the groups mentioned in this thread currently compete, yes, different means better. Clearly, the Cavaliers' shows from the past 7 years have been superior (in all but 2 instances) to other performances fielded within the same circuit. That is the one clear fact we have here. Those shows are better, because the only ruler by which we have to measure the inherently biased ambiguous word "better", is the DCI judging system.

Five of the last seven years in DCI competition, the Cavaliers have had better shows than the competition. Please refute me.

I'm sure I haven't been as clear as I would've liked, but stop reading only what you want to see. I give warrented admiration towards The Cavaliers and one example is exactly what you posted above. I'm not arguing against their success due to the strength in design at all. I'm saying that The Cavaliers have a different and unique style that works wonders for them. Other corps have their styles too. One is not better than the other, it's just that The Cavaliers have been better at fully developing theirs.

If all corps used the same style of The Cavaliers, The Cavaliers would probably be just as successful. However, corps have different styles that each identifies with.

This might make my argument more clear:

The Cavaliers have consistently had better design in the 2000s. They also have their unique style that is different, not better.

Just like straight-leg vs knee-bend or dot vs form. It's a different style and arguments can be made for each, but one is not clearly better than the other. If you think it truly is, then stop throwing your bias on everyone. It's a subjective opinion. Each side has evidence, but there aren't clear cut "winners". I can make a strong argument for straight-leg, but I see its negatives as well as the pros to having knee-bend. I'm not going to come on here and say that it's positively the best way.

Here's another take on the marching argument that relates to the rest of the post. I haven't checked recaps, but I'm sure The Cavaliers have been very successful in field performance the last few years. Do their high scores in that caption mean that the knee-bend style is better? No. Do all the marching awards The Cadets and Blue Devils have mean that straight-leg is better? No. It's not like there was a revolutionary turn of events in marching where knee-bend became the best technique. The Cavaliers just performed it better. The Cavaliers are designing their shows consistently better than anyone, but that doesn't mean that their style of show is definitively the best.

[JayM]

The Cavaliers are designing their shows consistently better than anyone, but that doesn't mean that their style of show is definitively the best.

It doesn't mean that their style is definitively the best, it means that the shows they have designed using that style, are, by the only tool we have to measure "better", better.

Now that doesn't explicitly state that their style is best, but don't the results imply that thus far?

[euponitone]

It doesn't mean that their style is definitively the best, it means that the shows they have designed using that style, are, by the only tool we have to measure "better", better.

Now that doesn't explicitly state that their style is best, but don't the results imply that thus far?

In my opinion, no. For one, scoring is not the only tool we have to measure. I understand that it may be the most important to many, and it is aso the most unbiased, but is not the only one. However, if we are basing everything on the number of championships one, then lets just go ahead and hand the award to the cadets and of course, the blue devils. I understand this thread is about the cavaliers dominance in the 2000's, but keep in mind, this is just a trend. The fact that it is the most statistically successful one to date does not change that. When and if they catch up to those corps, then they will really have something to brag about. Also, with regard to the ol' straight leg, to bent knee technique...as far as i can remember, field marching has big one of the cavies biggest weakness (which means getting 2nd or 3rd most years), next to percussion. I didnt check any recaps, but Im fairly certain that they lost that particular caption, even in many of the years they won, and certainly in the years they did not.

[uncle z]

The Cavie dominance started in the eighties.

Ummmm.........no.

The Cavie dominance started in the late fifties. It just took a little hiatus.

[84skyrydr]

FIFTIES????? There was drum corps in the FIFTIES???? How did they use their microphones and speakers with electricity not having been invented yet? . My parents hadn't even met yet and anything prior to 75 is too hard to watch. Sound and color are HORRIBLE, but I will take your word for it. You know, when I marched in the Colts in 1981, that was the start of the Colts rise to the top 12 too..... LOL I also got Jim Mason where he is today That is part of a story in how the Cavies rose too. Like Mason and Star { Mason directed the Colts with very little success, yet took Star to the Championship} They came out and hired the BEST of everybody, visual, percussion, horns, guard, everything. That was how they recruited kids and got the thing rolling. Kind of like the Cavies.

[Meaghatron]

In my opinion, no. For one, scoring is not the only tool we have to measure. I understand that it may be the most important to many, and it is aso the most unbiased, but is not the only one. However, if we are basing everything on the number of championships one, then lets just go ahead and hand the award to the cadets and of course, the blue devils. I understand this thread is about the cavaliers dominance in the 2000's, but keep in mind, this is just a trend...

IMO, 5 championships in 7 years, 7 championships altogether, and their rich history is enough to brag about. I guess that means the Cadets and Blue Devils can brag all they want too. Besides, I didn't know there was a set number of championships a corps had to have before they can brag about their success :P

[Phantom&Phitch]

It doesn't mean that their style is definitively the best, it means that the shows they have designed using that style, are, by the only tool we have to measure "better", better.

Now that doesn't explicitly state that their style is best, but don't the results imply that thus far?

not really...

It would be like saying what's a better style of marching, straight-leg or bent knee?

There is no correct answer except for 'whoever does it better.'

It doesn't mean their show style is better, it just means they have been better at doing their shows in they style that they have established, than other corps are at doing their own shows in their own styles.

[mobrien]

IMO, 5 championships in 7 years, 7 championships altogether

Add 13 more national championships to that number, and you're on the mark. B)