What do you really want out of DCI

[ScribeToo]

1. If DCP did not have the ability to prevent rampant multiple voting from stacking polls, they would not run polls.

Ken,

I helped create this place, remember? There's no simple way to prevent it. It was always something we KNEW could happen and likely did.. and here's the thing: This site is purely for ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES.. that means, no extreme measures really need to be taken to protect the "accuracy" of any polls posted here.

No extreme measures are taken, I assure you.

2. MikeD is an admin (and an IT professional, I believe), and in all the time he has spent discrediting polls, I've never heard him raise this issue.

Mike's a good guy. He wouldn't need to RAISE the "issue" because there isn't one. NO ONE takes the polls on this site seriously.. oh wait.. except if they skew the way you want them to.. then they're Gospel Truth.

blahblahblahblaablaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus Christ, Ken.

Does every post have to be a sparring match with you? Are you compelled to pick every comment apart sentence by sentence and hair by hair?

No wonder I've lost interest in any kind of conversation with you.

Stef

[supersop]

Did someone mention to you that DCI is:

*moving to the least expensive metro area in the country

*making finals stationary to not spend time and effort on locating a moving finals event

*posted 6 internships for the summer

*has this thing called Division2/3

*negotiates better deals at every major stadium it goes to

I don't think you give credit where credit is due...

Did you read the full tax return? I'm not implying that there aren't things in place that deserve credit. I clearly stated that I would like to see them do a better job with the capitol they have in their hands.

*Corporate office expenditures isn't going to make a big dent in savings one way or the other when it comes to real property. 5-10k is a drop in the bucket with a 9 million dollar budget.

*6 internships isn't enough. Rather than having so few paid employees with excessive workloads (call Sue Kuenhold some day and ask her everything she does).. why not hire double the people at half the pay (which would still be well over double the amount of poverty level pay in any area of the country in comparison to the current wages of the small staff at DCI)

*DIV 2/3 is definately a THING to DCI. They are promising some changes this year in the area of marketing and showcasing but more needs to be done. MUCH MORE. Creating a seperation of tours from DIV 1 to DIV 2/3 is part of the problem. Logistically, there are less performance opportunities for DIV 2/3 now than there were 10 years ago, mostly because they are treated as a separate entity within DCI rather than part of the TOTAL PRODUCT. Seed some new corps and/or help save the ones that are crumbling!!!

* Better deals? Where are the receipts? I only see the cost of venues rising of the past 5 years .. not going down. And it's in writing for the whole world to see.

[audiodb]

No, I dismiss your opinion, not facts.

You just dismiss whatever you don't want to hear, as the responses below indicate.

Veteran groups were abandoning drum corps as their post populations aged and declined in number.

Did you even read what I wrote? First of all, I only said that corps could have continued to attend the state and national contests that VFW and AL ran (which were not being "abandoned"). Second, many veterans' posts continued to support drum corps well past 1972, in some cases regardless of their aging membership.

Those shows were single events...and they ran into the DCI era. You can't assume they could somehow have created 'several' events each, unless this is just idle speculation.

That is not "idle speculation". The DCW/Fleetwood team, already running the World Open and Danny Thomas Invitational, lined up a series of shows leading to/from World Open in 1972 - all of which were boycotted by the DCI member corps as a result of their inability to resolve issues regarding judging and recording rights. Most of those shows ended up being cancelled as a result. (World Open still took place, but without the DCI corps.)

That is what happened in MB here in the East with TOB and later EMBA and NESBA (not sure if NYSFBC is judge-circuit-based). Again, idle speculation, which is OK.

Again, this is not "idle speculation". The National Judges Association created a circuit for corps in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area which operated for most of the 1960s as the "National Association" circuit - so it had already been done in drum corps.

Corps were failing...and with them local show sponsors. No indication that there would have been corps in sufficient number to fill out these 'regional circuits' over time.

Mike, there were 400 corps back then - that is sufficient numbers. And you have no way of knowing what the numbers would have been over time. Now that sounds more like "idle speculation" to me.

How so? There were fewer and fewer corps...and shows...in each geographic area. The touring expanded to provide the top corps with enough competition to survive.

I don't know what you're trying to say here. DCI expanded touring throughout 1972-1975, when there were over 300 other corps. You think 300 other corps weren't enough competition to survive?

BTW...the first gas crisis was in 1973/74.

Which was my point. Had the top corps waited two more years to form DCI, they might not have chosen to make expanded nationwide touring the #1 goal of their new organization.

That has nothing to do with the survival of drum corps as an activity. Controversial it indeed was.

And how can you be so sure that a different approach to judging administration wouldn't have caused a different outcome? Oh, that's right - idle speculation.

You ignore history. World Open got to where they were because of their philosophy on selecting judges. They were always careful to select judges from all over the country and from several different organizations, to avoid the complaints of bias or unfairness that plagued other contests. DCI, of course, felt that one judging association (their own) would suffice. This philosophical disagreement went beyond just DCI vs. DCW/Fleetwood/World Open. Some corps felt strongly one way or the other. With no compromise, this caused a schism where some top corps never appeared at DCI, or conversely, rarely or never appeared at World Open again.

[BOBSMYTH]

{snip}

I guess I would like to see DCI spend their profits a bit more wisely. It's hard to find in the filings, anywhere where it states what monies are returned to the corps, if any. {snip}

I am sorry but I think you are misreading some of the information on the 2005 990 form. There are a lot of things in your post I want to respond to but I'll try to stick with a couple highlights:

I think you are reading the numbers from an IRS form that is not designed to give you information about how "wisely" DCI spends its "profits". In fact, according to the form you were reading, DCI did not have a profit in 2005, they had a loss of approximately $33,000 - so there were no profits to spend.

Because it is not on the IRS form: to answer your question, DCI returns to the corps about 30% of all revenues generated each year. That means that in 2005, they would have returned about $2.8 - $2.9 million.

{snip}

...nerely 1.6 million in (mystery) "other program expenses" one must wonder who's policing these spending issues and why some of those funds aren't being used for programs and services that grow the drum and bugle corps activity and not just DCI. {snip}

If you follow the notes that are included in the tax filing you will see that the $1.6 million in mystery expenses are not a mystery at all. That figure represents the cost of all of their merchandise business (everything from the T-shirts and program books to the production costs of the DVD's and CD's) plus the costs associated with producing the annual television program that airs on ESPN. Which do you want to cut out, the DVD's or the TV program?

[drumcat]

Did you read the full tax return? I'm not implying that there aren't things in place that deserve credit. I clearly stated that I would like to see them do a better job with the capitol they have in their hands.

*Corporate office expenditures isn't going to make a big dent in savings one way or the other when it comes to real property. 5-10k is a drop in the bucket with a 9 million dollar budget.

*6 internships isn't enough. Rather than having so few paid employees with excessive workloads (call Sue Kuenhold some day and ask her everything she does).. why not hire double the people at half the pay (which would still be well over double the amount of poverty level pay in any area of the country in comparison to the current wages of the small staff at DCI)

*DIV 2/3 is definately a THING to DCI. They are promising some changes this year in the area of marketing and showcasing but more needs to be done. MUCH MORE. Creating a seperation of tours from DIV 1 to DIV 2/3 is part of the problem. Logistically, there are less performance opportunities for DIV 2/3 now than there were 10 years ago, mostly because they are treated as a separate entity within DCI rather than part of the TOTAL PRODUCT. Seed some new corps and/or help save the ones that are crumbling!!!

* Better deals? Where are the receipts? I only see the cost of venues rising of the past 5 years .. not going down. And it's in writing for the whole world to see.

I appreciate your fervor, but I also know what goes on there. If anything, they understand clearly that they have to control expenses, just as any business. They know this, and have lots of years of experience at it. They do it very well. Coming after it with a dozen interns or more won't help. Interns are managed helpers, heavy on the management. I think they take on as many interns as is feasible, since I doubt they'd turn down "free" labor otherwise. Lowering pay is just idiotic. No one is getting rich at DCI HQ. People are paid appropriately, I'm sure. Judging pay vs. poverty proves you've never managed beyond a McDonalds. (or wal*mart, i guess...)

And for D2/3, let's recount how much effort they put into D2/3 vs. attendance. I'd say effort is beating attendance handily. Show me the payoff for even more effort and money to be thrown at D2/3... If you say "more corps", I say baloney. The "hot" corps just up, Blue Stars and Academy, didn't build their programs through DCI subsistence. They did it internally, and that's because they are their own "company". Lack of performance opportunities... sorry. It may be a shorter season than a decade ago, but puh-leeze. The argument when I was in D2 15 years ago was that D2 couldn't get out from under the shadow of D1, and always went on early to little recognition. Now they have more of their own shows, control their own destiny, and market as well as they ever have, and you want to fold them back into D1 shows more?

Come on... you've just basically called everyone at DCI either incompetent or a fat cat. The evidence shows otherwise.

[supersop]

I appreciate your fervor, but I also know what goes on there. If anything, they understand clearly that they have to control expenses, just as any business. They know this, and have lots of years of experience at it. They do it very well. Coming after it with a dozen interns or more won't help. Interns are managed helpers, heavy on the management. I think they take on as many interns as is feasible, since I doubt they'd turn down "free" labor otherwise. Lowering pay is just idiotic. No one is getting rich at DCI HQ. People are paid appropriately, I'm sure. Judging pay vs. poverty proves you've never managed beyond a McDonalds. (or wal*mart, i guess...)

And for D2/3, let's recount how much effort they put into D2/3 vs. attendance. I'd say effort is beating attendance handily. Show me the payoff for even more effort and money to be thrown at D2/3... If you say "more corps", I say baloney. The "hot" corps just up, Blue Stars and Academy, didn't build their programs through DCI subsistence. They did it internally, and that's because they are their own "company". Lack of performance opportunities... sorry. It may be a shorter season than a decade ago, but puh-leeze. The argument when I was in D2 15 years ago was that D2 couldn't get out from under the shadow of D1, and always went on early to little recognition. Now they have more of their own shows, control their own destiny, and market as well as they ever have, and you want to fold them back into D1 shows more?

Come on... you've just basically called everyone at DCI either incompetent or a fat cat. The evidence shows otherwise.

First ... I'll be sure and send you my resume`. Second, go back and look at how things were run with corps of all size and division when DCM/DCE et al were in existence. The beginning of the end of true support for Div 2/3 was when DCI killed off DCM and their culture of thinking. Kinda strange when a governing body mandates that all Div 1 corps in a regional circuit must withdraw in favor of doing all DCI mandated tours from June to Finals.

Less performance opportunites were evident the past 2 years when corps had to cancel a week or two out of their tour because there weren't enough corps to fill a show slate ... yes that's fact .. and it happened because corps were folding left and right. Rather than save the show venue and the tickets sold by adding in some Div 1 corps .. the show was cancelled. But I guess an average of 500 miles between venues is acceptable these days.

We can go round and round if you want. I'm happy that you've bought in to the ideology of the current culture within the DCI BoD and corporate offices. I haven't. Surprisingly, we disagree on almost every point that you've posted. This sounds more like a Democrat (ME) arguing with a Republican (YOU), rather than a debate about what DCI can do better as a sanctioning/governing body.

Edited March 29, 2007 by supersop

[djrick]

I think DCI is doing a great job! I love Season Pass! Thanks DCI!! :) :)

[audiodb]

Second, go back and look at how things were run with corps of all size and division when DCM/DCE et al were in existence. The beginning of the end of true support for Div 2/3 was when DCI killed off DCM and their culture of thinking. Kinda strange when a governing body mandates that all Div 1 corps in a regional circuit must withdraw in favor of doing all DCI mandated tours from June to Finals.

Touchy subject. The apologists will be here soon to correct you by insisting that DCI never "mandated" that the division I corps withdraw from DCM shows. It was just coincidental that every one of them (except the one run by DCM's executive director) boycotted DCM events forever after. For an unspoken, informal boycott, it was better executed then the formally-declared boycott of VFW/AL Nationals in 1972 (which Cavaliers and Argonne Rebels didn't follow through on).

Less performance opportunites were evident the past 2 years when corps had to cancel a week or two out of their tour because there weren't enough corps to fill a show slate ... yes that's fact .. and it happened because corps were folding left and right.

I don't think this was due to loss of corps. From what I understand, a series of shows in Kansas/Oklahoma fell through in 2005 because three of the four show sponsors cancelled their shows, and the corps signed up for this leg of the tour weren't willing to spend an extra week on the road for just one show over 1,000 miles away from all the other shows. (Still a problem, just one of a different nature.)

[MikeD]

I'm still looking for a point at the end of your endless retorts Mike. What do you want to see out of DCI as a sanctioning body? <---- TOPIC

I reply to what others are saying...I don't see you asking THEM that question....I posted this earlier which covers nicely what I want out of DCI...

DCI has been moving down exactly the right road recently to maximize it's impact...covering a wide range of audiences. From the Classic Countdown to televising 1/4's to ESPN to inviting DCA competitive and alumni corps to legacy DVD's.

DCI is doing just fine by me.

How's that?

[MikeD]

Did you even read what I wrote? First of all, I only said that corps could have continued to attend the state and national contests that VFW and AL ran (which were not being "abandoned"). Second, many veterans' posts continued to support drum corps well past 1972, in some cases regardless of their aging membership.

Yes, I read what you wrote....IMO it's totally bogus. Were you involved with drum corps from 70-80? I forget your exact era. I was. Big deal if they ran one National show...and some state/regional ones. That doesn't make for a season of shows. What 'regional' shows are you talking about, BTW?

Why should the corps have continued to support organizations such as the VFW and AL when they did not agree with how those groups regarding judging and admin issues?

Yes, some post continued to support their corps...they didn't all stop in one year. it was a gradual process. Where did I say they all stopped in 1972?

That is not "idle speculation". The DCW/Fleetwood team, already running the World Open and Danny Thomas Invitational, lined up a series of shows leading to/from World Open in 1972 - all of which were boycotted by the DCI member corps as a result of their inability to resolve issues regarding judging and recording rights. Most of those shows ended up being cancelled as a result. (World Open still took place, but without the DCI corps.)

Five of the top 6 at the 72 World Open made DCI finals in 72...the Brassmen were the other.

Again, this is not "idle speculation". The National Judges Association created a circuit for corps in the Philadelphia/South Jersey area which operated for most of the 1960s as the "National Association" circuit - so it had already been done in drum corps.

As for that model working all over the country...yes, it is idle speculation.

Mike, there were 400 corps back then - that is sufficient numbers. And you have no way of knowing what the numbers would have been over time. Now that sounds more like "idle speculation" to me.

I know corps were failing and it accelerated through the 70's...not due to DCI. that is not idle speculation.

Which was my point. Had the top corps waited two more years to form DCI, they might not have chosen to make expanded nationwide touring the #1 goal of their new organization.

Survival was the goal....it resulted in national touring. You have it backwards.

You ignore history. World Open got to where they were because of their philosophy on selecting judges. They were always careful to select judges from all over the country and from several different organizations, to avoid the complaints of bias or unfairness that plagued other contests. DCI, of course, felt that one judging association (their own) would suffice. This philosophical disagreement went beyond just DCI vs. DCW/Fleetwood/World Open. Some corps felt strongly one way or the other. With no compromise, this caused a schism where some top corps never appeared at DCI, or conversely, rarely or never appeared at World Open again.

No, YOU are the one who ignores history. DCI wanted to control who judged their corps, absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. They did indeed use judges from all over the country...from many associations. DCI did want to make sure those judges were capable of judging to the level they as an organization felt was appropriate, so they decided that they would be the ones to control the judges that they used, not the associations they came from. This did cause a lot of grief with the associations around the country. Was it the right thing to do? From DCI's POV, yes. From the associations, no.