What do you really want out of DCI

[PR_ducky]

Thanks. Everyone is free to have an opinion. You have your wrong ones, and I have my correct ones ( :P )

We used to have extreme examples like the above all the time in judging clinics. Always thought they were bogus, as they do not reflect reality.

Would I mind a keyboard being used as a piano? No. Or a string section? Again, no.

How about a small corps that does not have the pit players but does have a great piano player who could create a vibe sound...not a prob to me.

I don't think we need pianos, or strings, but I would not disagree about the undersize pit kid using one.

The problem is that that is the OTHER extreme.

As soon as you make electronic keyboards available for the kid in the pit in your example, 4 other corps will have a pit with 8 electronic keyboards and nothing else using them to play marimba parts as well as strings, horn parts, and everything else under the sun. next comes a drum machine to replace the battery.

I am sorry about the lonely kid in the pit by himself who needs it, but I would much rather sacrifice him if it means avoiding the other situation.

[Tom Brace]

First ... I'll be sure and send you my resume`. Second, go back and look at how things were run with corps of all size and division when DCM/DCE et al were in existence. The beginning of the end of true support for Div 2/3 was when DCI killed off DCM and their culture of thinking. Kinda strange when a governing body mandates that all Div 1 corps in a regional circuit must withdraw in favor of doing all DCI mandated tours from June to Finals.

Ah...the immortal DCM card comes back to the top of the deck. Yes, lovely, quaint DCM. Dixon's Petunia Festival, the Oneida Show, Port Huron, the list goes on.

I believe what happened to DCM was that some corps (read...top corps) felt DCM actually presented them with too many opportunities to perform. I know????What am I saying???? Isn't that...against the fans????

Well...a wonderful show in Streator, IL for example, had seats for maybe 1200 people (show side, goal to goal, In those days, the tickets might have been $8-$12 a piece depending if you got the deluxe parking package (closer to the stadium, less dust on the car after the show).

So, there was a physical limit as to how much this show sponsor could pay in costs vs their break even. So they would sell programs, get corps sponsors, everything they could to help try to mitigate their risk.

Down the road...about 35 miles is Redbird Stadium....seats maybe 6000 show side. Soon to be more!!!!!

Why wouldn't the good people of the Streator area go there? To see the unique opportunity to see drum corps. For about the same money (adjusted for inflation) with more top corps...with more cheering fans.

It was simply a consolidation strategy which earned the corps more money, gave more event uniqueness to their shows and made the average audience numbers spike.

Did it work? 50% of the people will say it destroyed little corps and little shows. 50% will say it helped stay off the problems facing the corps as the new centuray began.

Going to work now.

[MikeD]

The problem is that that is the OTHER extreme.

As soon as you make electronic keyboards available for the kid in the pit in your example, 4 other corps will have a pit with 8 electronic keyboards and nothing else using them to play marimba parts as well as strings, horn parts, and everything else under the sun. next comes a drum machine to replace the battery.

That's where we disagree. The use of extreme examples is one thing I never liked in judging clinics, as it doesn't reflect reality. I don't see that happening. Will someone use some keyboards for all sorts of reasons? Sure. but I just don't see no battery and just keyboards making it's way into DCI as an everyday thing. Maybe a div III might...if need be...not march a bettery...happens in smaller MB all the time (inc the one I arrange for and teach last year). Don't see if in a decent size group that HAS the players.

[audiodb]

Yes, I read what you wrote....IMO it's totally bogus. Were you involved with drum corps from 70-80? I forget your exact era. I was.

Pulling rank is beneath you, Mike.

So if I didn't march in the 1970s, I have no right to comment?

Big deal if they ran one National show...and some state/regional ones. That doesn't make for a season of shows.

Didn't have to - other event sponsors ran the rest of the season's shows, just like today.

Why should the corps have continued to support organizations such as the VFW and AL when they did not agree with how those groups regarding judging and admin issues?

Why did they support VFW/AL throughout the 1960s, when they were constantly at odds over those same issues? I would have to guess that the services VFW/AL provided in organizing and running contests at the state and national level, standardizing rules for the activity, and providing a backbone of post $upport and audience draw were deemed worthwhile for quite some time.

Yes, some post continued to support their corps...they didn't all stop in one year. it was a gradual process.

They didn't all stop, period. You make it sound as if every corps was deserted by their post sponsor at some point.

Five of the top 6 at the 72 World Open made DCI finals in 72...the Brassmen were the other.

The boycott only went in one direction. World Open entrants didn't boycott DCI Championships.

I know corps were failing and it accelerated through the 70's...not due to DCI. that is not idle speculation.

Claiming it had nothing to do with DCI is "idle speculation".

Mike, you can't have it both ways. Some corps lived, others died. DCI dealt with some of each. There's been good and bad under DCI's watch, but you want to give them all the credit for the good, and blame all the bad on someone else.

Corps are still failing today, when DCI is the only circuit left.

Survival was the goal....it resulted in national touring. You have it backwards.

So the Blue Stars, Madison Scouts and Argonne Rebels took an unprecedented tour to California and back in DCI's very first year because they wouldn't have survived otherwise?

No, YOU are the one who ignores history. DCI wanted to control who judged their corps, absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. They did indeed use judges from all over the country...from many associations. DCI did want to make sure those judges were capable of judging to the level they as an organization felt was appropriate, so they decided that they would be the ones to control the judges that they used, not the associations they came from. This did cause a lot of grief with the associations around the country. Was it the right thing to do? From DCI's POV, yes. From the associations, no.

Did I hit a nerve?

Take a deep breath, and relax. I am not saying that DCI was right or wrong in taking control of the judging.

You asked what other paths the activity might have chosen, and I gave you seven. Each of those seven other options is plausible. The point was merely to show that drum corps could have continued to exist until today without DCI, contrary to your declaration, and I believe I have illustrated that much.

But now you want to extend the argument to whether these alternatives would have been better or worse than the path DCI chose? That, naturally, is in the eye of the beholder. And if the beholder sees no difference between drum corps and marching bands, then what's the point? To you, the drum corps activity could dwindle to zero, and you'd proclaim DCI a success post-mortem just for influencing marching band.

[audiodb]

I believe what happened to DCM was that some corps (read...top corps) felt DCM actually presented them with too many opportunities to perform. I know????What am I saying????

What are you saying, actually? What do you mean by "too many opportunities to perform"?

Well...a wonderful show in Streator, IL for example, had seats for maybe 1200 people (show side, goal to goal, In those days, the tickets might have been $8-$12 a piece depending if you got the deluxe parking package (closer to the stadium, less dust on the car after the show).

So, there was a physical limit as to how much this show sponsor could pay in costs vs their break even. So they would sell programs, get corps sponsors, everything they could to help try to mitigate their risk.

Down the road...about 35 miles is Redbird Stadium....seats maybe 6000 show side. Soon to be more!!!!!

DeKalb isn't much farther....

Why wouldn't the good people of the Streator area go there?

We don't know for sure. Maybe they just don't take to travelling like drum corps tour veterans. Maybe they wanted an event on a particular day. But it would appear that they wanted a show in their own community, and they wanted it bad enough to do whatever it took to make it happen. And judging from the packed stands, there was audience interest.

Sorry about your car - mine got dirty too.

[MikeD]

Pulling rank is beneath you, Mike.

So if I didn't march in the 1970s, I have no right to comment?

No, not pulling rank. Trying to see what you experienced first-hand, that's all. I marched, taught, and judged throughout the 70's, and I experienced the things I mention first hand...and saw it happen to many other corps.

Didn't have to - other event sponsors ran the rest of the season's shows, just like today.

Why did they support VFW/AL throughout the 1960s, when they were constantly at odds over those same issues? I would have to guess that the services VFW/AL provided in organizing and running contests at the state and national level, standardizing rules for the activity, and providing a backbone of post $upport and audience draw were deemed worthwhile for quite some time.

Different timeframe. What worked in the 50's and 60's was no longer acceptable. That's why DCI was started. Are you saying that because it 'worked' at one time it would automatically work forver? There was disatisfaction with using different sets of rules and score sheets all through the 60's. The rules and score sheets were NOT standardized.

They didn't all stop, period. You make it sound as if every corps was deserted by their post sponsor at some point.

Many corps were... I did not say 'every'.

Mike, you can't have it both ways. Some corps lived, others died. DCI dealt with some of each. There's been good and bad under DCI's watch, but you want to give them all the credit for the good, and blame all the bad on someone else.

No, I just don't 'blame' DCI for corps failing...esp corps that were not members of DCI.

Corps are still failing today, when DCI is the only circuit left.

Again...it's not DCI's fault they are failing. Look at the various individual cases.

So the Blue Stars, Madison Scouts and Argonne Rebels took an unprecedented tour to California and back in DCI's very first year because they wouldn't have survived otherwise?

I don't know why those corps agreed to tour out west. All we know is that they did. Why would their very existence have depended on it? It's up to each corps admin to agree to such a tour or not. Touring Ca pretty much killed off Blue Rock. Was it DCI's fault? Or corps management for taking on such a tour with what had to be the very worst busses in drum corps history?

Did I hit a nerve?

Take a deep breath, and relax. I am not saying that DCI was right or wrong in taking control of the judging.

No. Not a problem.

You asked what other paths the activity might have chosen, and I gave you seven. Each of those seven other options is plausible. The point was merely to show that drum corps could have continued to exist until today without DCI, contrary to your declaration, and I believe I have illustrated that much.

As I disagree with most of your possibilities, I disagree that you 'illustrated' much of anything that might reasonbly have happened. So as usual, we disagree.

But now you want to extend the argument to whether these alternatives would have been better or worse than the path DCI chose? That, naturally, is in the eye of the beholder. And if the beholder sees no difference between drum corps and marching bands, then what's the point? To you, the drum corps activity could dwindle to zero, and you'd proclaim DCI a success post-mortem just for influencing marching band.

Where did I say anything like that? I hope DCI is around for decades to come.

[kksop17]

It's interesting that this debate endlessly goes in circles. Oh wait a minute. No it's not.

DCI is neither good nor bad; it just is. It does some good things. It does some stupid things. For instance, added publicity, new online tools, increased accessibility = good.

Poor financial control of its members, lack of a defined Division 1 competition policy/moving up policy = bad. There are many more points under each one of these. However, neither one on it's own makes the organization itself inherently good or evil.

In addition, we can debate endlessly how Drum Corps may have ended up. Fact of the matter is that we are here now. Where we go from now is far more important than where we came from. That being said; it's important to understand why things happened as they did in the 70's, 80's, 90's and now in the early 00's. Many corps are folding, going inactive, struggling with the attraction and retention of members. While audition numbers are consistently trending upwards for many corps, many corps still struggle to fill their ranks. Why is that? Perhaps instead of mere speculation and opinion we should look in facts, which have been rigourously studied by people with access to the data. Instead we are constantly faced with lay debate on subjects that actually merit a real look.

There are huge problems with DCI today and with Drum Corps in general. The activity itself itsn't sustainable in it's current form. There is no way that Drum Corps will be able to continue to grow when the number of corps, events, and people capable of running a Drum Corps decreases.

Finally, these issues are something that many "professional sports leagues" struggle with. I would group DCI in this area because in general we follow the format of a professional sports league; many small games prior to a large championship. The NHL, NBA, NFL, and MLB all struggle with scheduling, new rules, poorly managed organizations, and a host of issues.

The difference is they have millions (billions) of dollars while we have maybe a few hundred thousand at best. These issues aren't unique to DCI.

As for what I would like to see out of DCI; I would like to see a focus on the grassroots of the activity. The development of kids at a lower level so that by the time they are ready to march in a bigger corps they've been properly developed and we have a large talent pool to draw on. Is this hard to do? Absolutely; but youth bands exist everywhere. Millions of young people play in them all over North America. DCI does not need to be defined by a national tour, or marching in a lesser "DII corps". I would like to see DCI actively recruit partners outside of the marching or music world who will champion our cause in the mainstream. Why? Because frankly we can't survive without funding; the activity is simply far too expensive without a constant source of revenue and organizational stability. The biggest challenge facing Drum Corps today (as it always has been, same thing with other small organizations) is a total lack of stability. It's hard for major sponsors to commit to something when the competitive landscape changes EVERY SINGLE YEAR. The reality is that no one knows which corps will field every year and which corps won't. In the last ten years I don't think there has been a single year when at least two corps haven't fielded for a variety of reasons. There needs to be an emphasis on both financial management and the development of local talent everywhere; they don't need huge budgets or huge tours. They need modest budgets, kids with their own horns, and to play 10-12 shows a year on a more local scope.

Finally, I would like to see divisional parity with more income going to smaller corps. While these aren't the corps that will bring in revenue it is important for the health of the actiity as a whole to have a strong, large fanbase. There are currently a small number of drum corps fans who either aren't already involved in marching music or know someone (aka family, friends, etc), or have been previously involved. The potential for revenue, sponsorship, partnership and volunteer hours is strategically limited here. It's impossible to achieve growth without access to a larger pool of people; hence the grassroots stuff.

[hsreed]

What I think DCI should provide:

1. A set of rules to function by which performers and fans understand and respect. The rules should also allow for diversity and entertainment.

2. A marketing plan to primarily keep the activity alive, and then expand.

3. Guidance on how to operate a successful drum corps.

4. Pool resources for business negotiations and allow corps to benefit from pooled resources.

What I think DCI should not do:

1. Minimize creativity by dictating, via rules, what the ideal corps should look and sound like. Homogenization is our enemy.

2. Get in the way of entertainment - let the crowd decide what is entertaining and let that affect the score. An entertainment factor, which is why fans attend shows and spend money on tickets, should be considered in the score. The crowd needs to be pleased or the fan base will shrink. If corps are not numerically recognized for entertaining the crowd, they won't necessarily do it because there is no consequence in the score. It's far easier and six times less expensive to keep a fan than it is to find a fan. Use the NBA as an example. Before the ABA, professional hoops was boring. The NBA and ABA merged and adopted several rules from the entertaining ABA, which made the sport more entertaining. Today's popularity of the sport is a direct result of making the game more entertaining.

3. Reduce the relevance of a small corps by financially supporting a particular corps or small group of corps - share the wealth. By financially assisting one corps and not all corps, they're dictating what they want the activity to look like.

I think DCI is at the height of it's marketing prowess. It's a beast compared to what it was. This is the result of many years of hard and focused work. Unfortunately I don't think, and it's my opinion, that the product is the best it has ever been. Through either a change in scoring for music performance or imposing time limits for marching, the sound of the hornline should become a larger component of scoring. The guards are nice, but not necessarily better than anything put on the field over the last 25 years. Different - yes. Better, not sure. The drumlines/percussion sections are at the top of their game, miles ahead of every other section over the past 25 year. The meat of the corps, the hornline, which constitutes about half of any normal corps and about double the size of any other section in the corps, is minimized, undervalued and underscored for their contribution. Hornlines have taken a step or two back from the height of their game. I think this is a result of rule changes and not the fault of the performers.

[Brent]

The beginning of the end of true support for Div 2/3 was when DCI killed off DCM and their culture of thinking. Kinda strange when a governing body mandates that all Div 1 corps in a regional circuit must withdraw in favor of doing all DCI mandated tours from June to Finals.

After putting 3 years of my life into trying to make DCM work, I just want to clarify that DCI did not "kill off" DCM. In the end, they left us to our own accord to try and make it work. We lasted 2 years until all the corps really could not work together to the same end.

Many of my values and thoughts about DCA and Div. II/III are formed through these experiences I had in that time frame. Small shows peppered lightly around a large geographic area does not work for All Age Corps and/or Div. II/III corps. All Age and Div. II/III would be served better by having less travel and larger shows in which to participate. If that does not work, then we are dead in the water. At least DCI is giving the Div. II/III corps a chance to do this.

Brent Turner

Final DCM Board Chair

[drumcat]

That's where we disagree. The use of extreme examples is one thing I never liked in judging clinics, as it doesn't reflect reality. I don't see that happening. Will someone use some keyboards for all sorts of reasons? Sure. but I just don't see no battery and just keyboards making it's way into DCI as an everyday thing. Maybe a div III might...if need be...not march a bettery...happens in smaller MB all the time (inc the one I arrange for and teach last year). Don't see if in a decent size group that HAS the players.

I didn't imagine a rabbit saying he'd swallowed something before his wireless mic crapped out, either.