What do you really want out of DCI

[drumcat]

We can go round and round if you want. I'm happy that you've bought in to the ideology of the current culture within the DCI BoD and corporate offices. I haven't. Surprisingly, we disagree on almost every point that you've posted. This sounds more like a Democrat (ME) arguing with a Republican (YOU), rather than a debate about what DCI can do better as a sanctioning/governing body.

I'll let the DCM chair answer the DCM questions. As for the rest, if you think justifying to someone that you're going to cut their pay 50% is appropriate, more power to you. I'll choose to agree-to-disagree on the rest, but if you're going to bring out the tax return as evidence, don't shrivel up when you make a mistake about it. You're allowed to make a mistake, but before you go ballistic on some "other cost", ask about it first. It'll save some egg.

[MikeD]

I didn't imagine a rabbit saying he'd swallowed something before his wireless mic crapped out, either.

Corps have been using props and costumes for a long time. Only the mic is new.

I judged in the GSC back in the late 70's, and one corps played "Land of Make Believe" (actually, lots played the tune...but this is about one :P ).

They dressed up members as Mighty Mouse, Little Boy Blue, and Snow White; they danced around the field.

I seem to remember seeing a Phantom of the Opera on the field as well.

[drumcat]

Corps have been using props and costumes for a long time. Only the mic is new.

I judged in the GSC back in the late 70's, and one corps played "Land of Make Believe" (actually, lots played the tune...but this is about one :P ).

They dressed up members as Mighty Mouse, Little Boy Blue, and Snow White; they danced around the field.

I seem to remember seeing a Phantom of the Opera on the field as well.

You miss my point. It's not about the Rabbit suit or the Red Queen or Alice or any of that. In fact, I think they'd have been quite entertaining had they been mute. The point is that the unexpected outcomes of rule changes, as in this case, can and do happen. I doubt that many people were thinking that the mics would leave the pit, much less become a technical headache for the characters on the field, giving prose to their plight. Within three years of "...and the human voice," we saw what could easily be described as an unexpected outcome of the rule change.

[PR_ducky]

That's where we disagree. The use of extreme examples is one thing I never liked in judging clinics, as it doesn't reflect reality. I don't see that happening. Will someone use some keyboards for all sorts of reasons? Sure. but I just don't see no battery and just keyboards making it's way into DCI as an everyday thing. Maybe a div III might...if need be...not march a bettery...happens in smaller MB all the time (inc the one I arrange for and teach last year). Don't see if in a decent size group that HAS the players.

Mike,

My point is that EVEN if a corps has the players, if it's within the rules (or more specifically "not against" the rules) a corps will end up doingit, mainly just because they can.

I still think amps prove this. Initially only for amplifying the pit, now for vocals, I am sure a few more uses that can be squeezed within the current rules will creep up this season or next.

[rut-roh]

You miss my point. It's not about the Rabbit suit or the Red Queen or Alice or any of that. In fact, I think they'd have been quite entertaining had they been mute. The point is that the unexpected outcomes of rule changes, as in this case, can and do happen. I doubt that many people were thinking that the mics would leave the pit, much less become a technical headache for the characters on the field, giving prose to their plight. Within three years of "...and the human voice," we saw what could easily be described as an unexpected outcome of the rule change.

Actually, it happened in year one, didn't it? Wasn't Crown's mic's in the Bohemian show outside of the general pit area? Or am I just mis-remembering that? Regardless, I've seen many bands do similar things over the years, so I wouldn't characterize anything that's happened with mics in drum corps as being "unexpected." While the specific rules surrounding their use are still slightly different from DCI to the band world, the experimentation ground for the technology in that band world has given us a pretty wide knowledge base of what to "expect."

[MikeD]

You miss my point. It's not about the Rabbit suit or the Red Queen or Alice or any of that. In fact, I think they'd have been quite entertaining had they been mute. The point is that the unexpected outcomes of rule changes, as in this case, can and do happen. I doubt that many people were thinking that the mics would leave the pit, much less become a technical headache for the characters on the field, giving prose to their plight. Within three years of "...and the human voice," we saw what could easily be described as an unexpected outcome of the rule change.

How was it unexpected if it said "...and human voice"? There were excellent moments of micced voice...the Cadets singer in 06 and the Crown singers in 04...plus the Cascades naration as well as Crossmen...and the drumspeak...lots fo good stuff.

[MikeD]

Mike,

My point is that EVEN if a corps has the players, if it's within the rules (or more specifically "not against" the rules) a corps will end up doingit, mainly just because they can.

I still think amps prove this. Initially only for amplifying the pit, now for vocals, I am sure a few more uses that can be squeezed within the current rules will creep up this season or next.

The use of micced voice has been a small fraction of all the corps.

I like to see new uses of any legal element....keeps things interesting. Crown's guard in the Technology Show comes to mind as a great example...with the tires, wood etc....

[drumcat]

How was it unexpected if it said "...and human voice"? There were excellent moments of micced voice...the Cadets singer in 06 and the Crown singers in 04...plus the Cascades naration as well as Crossmen...and the drumspeak...lots fo good stuff.

Well, I for one didn't expect characters on the field to be such an integral part of the, quite literal, "storytelling". Yes, Crown's singers left the pit box; that's not what I meant. I just didn't envision Cadets 06 when mics came about in 04. I'm no stagehand, but I am attuned to the sampling world, so I have a better idea of what's coming with that baggage, if it does. My knowledge in that field is what makes me very frightened.

I'll agree to disagree about the "excellent moments". Between the technical gremlins and the poor enunciations, I'm still not convinced, and have been moved further against it, frankly. I was hoping to be swayed, but that hasn't happened. I do believe that amps in a limited capacity can benefit pits, but I'm not sure that the way it's being done is the best way.

[jake_the_hydra]

I think DCI is doing just fine. They have taken drastic steps in recent years to enhance their revenue, to enhance the fan experience, especially with their web site, Season Pass and more, and the Cinecast productions; and DCI is expanding in some areas while cutting back in others that no longer fit the bill.

As for retreats, I can do without them. They take too long, most people leave before they start, and at most shows I just want to hear scores and go home. Retreats are fine for a few really big regionals and DCI Finals anf that's it. Otherwise, it's just too much pomp and circumstance for me, especially for some regular-season show in which the corps need to travel and the licensed CDL drivers need the appropriate time to get to the next city and school. The law requires that the drivers have a certain amount of time to get to the next city and rehearsal site for the corps, and that must include stops for bathroom and food. This isn't the 70s anymore and DCI needs to clean its image of how its corps used to travel in the past. While those days make for some great stories, they also do not cut it under the law today.

Times change, people change, rules change, and in an activity like this one, artistry changes. If you can't handle change or if your needs are not being met, then I suggest, as George Carlin once stated, you drop some of your needs. This sounds harsh, but only because we choose to look at it this way. In reality, the person who needs G bugles, less dance, no electronics and no amplification, no singing, no play-acting, no artsy-fartsy shows, just balls-to-the-walls brass and drums as often, as loud, as high, and as exposed as possible, is someone whose needs are not only limiting for the activity, but they become the antithesis of what DCI has been from day one. They see their needs as upholding the tradition of the activity, yet the activity has been changing since day one. Exactly where is the cutoff point for all that change for which we can hang our definition of the activity and proudly pronounce, as we pound on our chest, that this is DCI and nothing more will be accepted?

Because it is an all-inclusive activity, there will always be those who desire different aspects of the many faces it wears, and in that sense those many faces will attract people for all kinds of reasons. You can't define that or control it, nor should you, and if you find that this is the only place you can whine and mone about the decline of drum corps as you know it, then perhaps you need to seek other entertainments. If you are so inclined to really get involved to be a part of the shaping of the activity, then by all means get involved. Rome was not build in a day and DCI will not change overnight, but all of you can find more positive ways to enhance and shape the future of drum corps, little by little, by getting involved. To blame the current state of DCI on one person, providing you don't like where DCI is at the moment, is akin to blaming the President for everything that goes wrong when so many others are involved. It's really naive and misleading, and it presupposes that all one has to do is come up with a proposal to change the activity in some way and that everyone will vote for it. To that end, the person who gets involved can clearly see the connectedness to current financial needs and alternatives, to the new generation of members whose culture is vastly different from that of the 70s or 80s, and the to need for a alliance with scholastic music programs.

And to the person who clearly indicated that these artists who desire change and such are acting out of arrogance, I will suggest to you that being artistic is not an act of arrogance. It could be stated, however, that one who enforces his/her rationale for what drum corps should be is acting more out of arrogance and perhaps an inability to work with others. Artists, hence field designers, composers and arrangers, and the like are always looking for ways to enhance and create the new. This is no more arrogant than a school teacher using different methods of teaching in order to get through to a student. It's as simple as this: don't define DCI for me and I will not define it for you, but in the course of evolution and economic change there are certain realities that will alter the activity in both ways we like and don't like, and we may have little control over that. Only time can heal some of those wounds, if they really are wounds, and only those involved control the future. There will always be the bad with the good, and I suspect that was true in the 50s and 60s as well.

JW

I know this is near the beginning of the thread, but I just decided to open this obvious can of worms today . . .

I know we've disagreed before sir, but . .

*stands up . . . slow clap*