Replacing Our Losses in Corps Numbers

[prodigital]

I have a simple solution. DCI needs to take a page from the American Idol playbook and get the fans involved with the final results.

Considering that General effect is subjective, why not let fans vote for their favorite corps online and then ACTUALLY incorporate the voting results into the actual general effect scores at semifinals?

Every ticket from every show would have a serial number that would entitle them to ONE, and only one vote on the DCI website. Individual corps would then need to push harder to get more people in the seats. Fans would travel further, go to more shows just to be able to support the corps and cast more votes.

To get these votes Corps would need to put out ever increasingly entertaining shows. More entertaining shows will eventually lead to more interest from outside of the drum corps activity. More interest from the "outside" will lead to more members, more revenue, and a longer life for the activity.

This would also create an interactive environment for the fans where they can track their favorite corps results, even help their favorite corps by dragging friends to a show and having them vote.

Another benefit is that smaller corps that have great shows could get a boost in their semifinal standings.

As a computer programmer, making adjustments to the DCI website would not be a big deal or cost much money. It also would not be a big deal for DCI to distribute tickets with valid serial numbers to the various show promoters to ensure there is no tampering and that everyone that attends a drum corps show, gets the opportunity to vote.

[MikeD]

Are you talking about the "if it ain't the best, it ain't worth doing" part of my post? If so it got me wondering if young folks from top band programs would be willing to be in a "lesser" corps just so they can have the corps experience. Never having competed in MB so have no idea.

I think it is somewhat true, though the number of REALLY top bands is a small fragment of the total number of bands, so it's not as bad as it might seem.

I do think that those who audition for div I finalist corps are primarily looking for a 'Cadet experience', or a' Blue Knight experience' as opposed to a 'drum corps experience', which will always remain.

But...there are thousands of bands out there who have members who would be ideal for ANY div II/III corps, in attitude and skills. There just needs to be a connection made. Agains with the 'but..but it has to be made from the POV of the potential member...what I see written all-too-often here is looking at this from the POV of what would benefit the II/III corps world.

Kids don't care about that...nor should they. They are looking to invest their sumer time and $$$ in an activity; they want to know as best as they can that THEY will benefit from it, not that it will help corps X survive another year.

[JazzmanSA80]

Here is how the CORPS menu looks on DCI.ORG for div I, II, and III.....I don't see what you are referring to. What am I missing?

As for corps not having a website...that is their own business.

On the left of that page, all the Div I corps are listed.

As for the D2 corps not having websites, I didn't intend to imply that DCI was at fault for that.

[silvertrombone]

They were in the same stadium last year. So there was no need for the extra travel, and 4000 people attended for the week. That's my point, while you may have been unable to attend yourself, there were still plenty of people in Madison who did not show up at Camp Randall Stadium when D2/3 performed.

I remember the same being the case in 91/92/93 also, but those were college/bowl-style stadiums. 94/95/96-98(?)/04/05 were all NFL stadiums--bigger bucks to rent, I'm sure. Someone who knows better 96-03 fill in the blanks there. This has been the era of BIG stadiums for DCI--NFL--prime time! Who wants to march D2/3 if you don't get to march in the BIG HOUSE?? I wouldn't blame them a bit.

We need to follow Crown's example of alternative, business-oriented models for the long term.

This started off with Star, right? The whole airport plane-fueling business, bus business, etc thing? Crown is sure using a great model to pattern itself after, on and off the field.

As far as berating your ideas...im sorry, but when you make such a silly analogy and then base a 8 paragraph post on it, its kinda easy. And i only did 3 years total, what does that have to do with anything. There's nothing elitist about me, just because i happened to get a ring. If i hadnt made cadets, i would have marched crossmen. Im sorry that i happened to be good enough to get into the corps i wanted to. Thats not elistist, thats just how my situation worked out. The fact is that the closest audition to me was a top 6 corps (and another finalist of course). I almost marched crossmen even though i made cadets because i liked their music better. Its good to see you making random assumptions about me, knowing nothing other than the corps i marched, and that i think people who are spending thousands of dollars should get to choose where they march. That was my opinion, and it was relevent to the thread.

Re-read my original comments. I don't think I was centering my whole 8-paragraph diatribe on Lebron James and the draft. Maybe I just don't speak very clearly. It is becoming somewhat annoying that I write a long deal like that and somebody comments first on the most (my intention) extraneous point I make and blasts me for it. Offer some original thoughts or suggestions to the discussion now. I notice that my "kid" comment wasn't replied to, and you didn't say anything about my business acumen and degrees, etc, so I must be making pretty decent "random assumptions." Sorry if I was wrong--happy to apologize if necessary.

Actually, there were fewer than six who had any sort of shot at winning DCI in 1972...

After Anaheim, the Blue Stars, SCV and 2-7, who scored between 86.0 and 88.1 (thanks to corpsreps), there was a marked dropoff to 5th place Argonne's 82.9.

You can look before that at VFW's and see similar results. You had corps making VFW finals in 71 that were 12-15 points out of first. At the 71 World Open only the top 4 had a legit shot at winning. The top 5 at both shows were the same corps. The idea that there were lots more corps at the top back "in the day" is just not true. When there were 440 corps....there were still only a handful of what would be the DCI div I today.

What I meant there was that, if I'm right, SCV was the only current finalist in the first finals that is still around in finals consistently, and with 6(?) championships, one of the most consistent contenders in DCI's history. PR and BD joined finals the next year and haven't left. Others in subsequent years.

While there were a few familiar names in the first couple years, and into the 80's, names like Troopers and Spirit of Atlanta (of JSU today) began in finals and fell out. Most who fell out are no longer around. Spirit has had struggles, but thankfully has a decent benefactor today. A big welcome back to the Troopers and VK, incidentally!

I don't actually KNOW much of the early years, but I do know that of the 6 you mentioned, 5 aren't contenders. And I don't remember which they are off the top of my head, but likely most of those other 5 are no longer active.

So when I said there were not 6 'dominant' corps in the early days, I meant those who clearly dominated, and who continued to dominate in DCI. Again, 5 of 6 are gone. 1 remains, IMHO, the finest organization in the activity, and I only say that about them b/c I don't know that much about BD's business side. Tops also, I imagine, based on their success on the field. (I'm sure some 23-year old will blast me now saying that on/off field have nothing to do with each other)

I have a simple solution. DCI needs to take a page from the American Idol playbook and get the fans involved with the final results.

Considering that General effect is subjective, why not let fans vote for their favorite corps online and then ACTUALLY incorporate the voting results into the actual general effect scores at semifinals?

Every ticket from every show would have a serial number that would entitle them to ONE, and only one vote on the DCI website. Individual corps would then need to push harder to get more people in the seats. Fans would travel further, go to more shows just to be able to support the corps and cast more votes.

To get these votes Corps would need to put out ever increasingly entertaining shows. More entertaining shows will eventually lead to more interest from outside of the drum corps activity. More interest from the "outside" will lead to more members, more revenue, and a longer life for the activity.

This would also create an interactive environment for the fans where they can track their favorite corps results, even help their favorite corps by dragging friends to a show and having them vote.

Another benefit is that smaller corps that have great shows could get a boost in their semifinal standings.

As a computer programmer, making adjustments to the DCI website would not be a big deal or cost much money. It also would not be a big deal for DCI to distribute tickets with valid serial numbers to the various show promoters to ensure there is no tampering and that everyone that attends a drum corps show, gets the opportunity to vote.

Another disciple in waiting! (just kidding, digital!)

That's three who either think like me, are beginning to, or always have. Geez, I've got to PM you guys and talk more--great ideas!

[bOX] We need more people thinking over here.

Everyone, remember the 'Hot Chops' competition at one of the early-season shows? I think Crown brass won the brass vote. Supposed to have drums and guard another time. digital is onto something! Great idea about the ticket numbering. I suggested something in the off-season and everyone said, "That's lame--you're stupid--it won't work!"

Yeah, and DCI started doing it didn't they? No prize associated with the vote just yet, but I'd do it at every show, tack on a cash prize, and let 20 points of GE go to fan vote. Wouldn't THAT shuffle things up a bit? Hmm, another thread calls me.

GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT suggestion, prodigital! Dare I say a Shiner Bock to you??? Yes. A Shiner Bock to prodigital--and a pair of box-cutters to let loose other claustrophobic minds, yearning to breath free!

[MikeD]

What I meant there was that, if I'm right, SCV was the only current finalist in the first finals that is still around in finals consistently, and with 6(?) championships, one of the most consistent contenders in DCI's history. PR and BD joined finals the next year and haven't left. Others in subsequent years.

While there were a few familiar names in the first couple years, and into the 80's, names like Troopers and Spirit of Atlanta (of JSU today) began in finals and fell out. Most who fell out are no longer around. Spirit has had struggles, but thankfully has a decent benefactor today. A big welcome back to the Troopers and VK, incidentally!

I don't actually KNOW much of the early years, but I do know that of the 6 you mentioned, 5 aren't contenders. And I don't remember which they are off the top of my head, but likely most of those other 5 are no longer active.

So when I said there were not 6 'dominant' corps in the early days, I meant those who clearly dominated, and who continued to dominate in DCI. Again, 5 of 6 are gone. 1 remains, IMHO, the finest organization in the activity, and I only say that about them b/c I don't know that much about BD's business side. Tops also, I imagine, based on their success on the field. (I'm sure some 23-year old will blast me now saying that on/off field have nothing to do with each other)

Another disciple in waiting! (just kidding, digital!)

I thought you meant that there were more corps at their level who had a chance to win DCI back then. My point is that there were never more than a handful of corps, even when there were hundreds, who were the top dogs.

[audiodb]

At the 71 World Open only the top 4 had a legit shot at winning.

How can you write off the Troopers, defending WO champ, who won two of the three Combine shows in the week leading up to World Open, and beat everyone they faced at some point in 1971?

The idea that there were lots more corps at the top back "in the day" is just not true. When there were 440 corps....there were still only a handful of what would be the DCI div I today.

....if your hand has 100 fingers. That's about how many corps competed in open-class back then. Over two dozen of them would claim finalist spots at major prelim/final contests, and you might have a handful of different champions. In 1971, for example:

VFW: SCV

World Open: 27

AL: Argonne

U.S. Open: Blue Rock

CYO: Blue Rock

Mid-American Open: Kingsmen

North American Open: Kilties

Dream: 27

South Milwaukee Spectacle: Madison

There were more corps back in the day, period. More at the top; more at the bottom; and more in between.

[MikeD]

How can you write off the Troopers, defending WO champ, who won two of the three Combine shows in the week leading up to World Open, and beat everyone they faced at some point in 1971?

If you'd like I'll add them...that makes 5 out of 440.

....if your hand has 100 fingers. That's about how many corps competed in open-class back then. Over two dozen of them would claim finalist spots at major prelim/final contests, and you might have a handful of different champions. In 1971, for example:

VFW: SCV

World Open: 27

AL: Argonne

U.S. Open: Blue Rock

CYO: Blue Rock

Mid-American Open: Kingsmen

North American Open: Kilties

Dream: 27

South Milwaukee Spectacle: Madison

There were more corps back in the day, period. More at the top; more at the bottom; and more in between.

There were still only a handful of corps that were at the very top level, with more tiered down under them...just like today. You listed 9 shows...and in 6 of them one of the top group won...of the top 4 I mentioned, actually.

SCV, 2-7, Anaheim, Blue Rock and Troopers were the national top-of-the-heap, and IMO the Troopers were at the bottom end of that top group...though still a great corps, of course.

Next you had Garfield, Argonne, Madison, Blue Stars, DeLaSalle and the Cavies clustered near each other. BAC, St Rita's, BS and the Kilties were slightly below that. Not all that different than today's div I finalists.

AL...question...how many of the top-5 at VFW/World Open attended? I don't see the scores on corpsreps for 71. I think most of the corps headed home after VFW's in Dallas.

North American Open: None of the top-5 attended.

South Milwaukee Spectacle? Is that one of the top shows nationally in 71? I don't see the scores on corpsreps.

[silvertrombone]

I thought you meant that there were more corps at their level who had a chance to win DCI back then. My point is that there were never more than a handful of corps, even when there were hundreds, who were the top dogs.

I know. And I tried to re-state myself more clearly. Looks like I did. :) I think it's accurate to state that the top 6 (just to pick a number) has always had the same quality from 1 to 6, it's just that the names over 30+ years have changed--save one.

There were more corps back in the day, period. More at the top; more at the bottom; and more in between.

I'm not belittling any corps or posters, but I would be interested to see a comparison of the 440 corps active in 1972, the 150 (+/-) active when I got into this thing called drum corps, and the--what?--40 active today? D1/2/3 today compared to the A/B/C classification corps of yesteryear. Comparison as in, how many were elite and averaged 19 or 20 years of age, how many were "middle" of the spectrum--say 16-19 average, and how many were Kiddie Korps--literally local kids 8, 10, 12 years old. I know there were a lot of those, too.

Also, anyone know how many shows there were in 72, 82, 92, 02, this year? With so many more corps, were there any more shows? And how many corps were touring national in, say, the same years? Versus how many were strictly local? And so on...

If you'd like I'll add them...that makes 5 out of 440.

There were still only a handful of corps that were at the very top level, with more tiered down under them...just like today. You listed 9 shows...and in 6 of them one of the top group won...of the top 4 I mentioned, actually.

SCV, 2-7, Anaheim, Blue Rock and Troopers were the national top-of-the-heap, and IMO the Troopers were at the bottom end of that top group...though still a great corps, of course.

Next you had Garfield, Argonne, Madison, Blue Stars, DeLaSalle and the Cavies clustered near each other. BAC, St Rita's, BS and the Kilties were slightly below that. Not all that different than today's div I finalists.

AL...question...how many of the top-5 at VFW/World Open attended? I don't see the scores on corpsreps for 71. I think most of the corps headed home after VFW's in Dallas.

North American Open: None of the top-5 attended.

South Milwaukee Spectacle? Is that one of the top shows nationally in 71? I don't see the scores on corpsreps.

Finals in Dallas? Really??? (just kidding--knew about that one, too)

[audiodb]

If you'd like I'll add them...that makes 5 out of 440.

There were still only a handful of corps that were at the very top level, with more tiered down under them...just like today.

So even in 1971, there were only five top-5 corps.

Not sure what your point is. Of course there are only X number of corps at the "top", depending on your definition of "top". I believe the point others are making is that corps exchanged places back then, from top to bottom.

If that's what you mean by "tier", then my point is that there were no tiers back then.

You listed 9 shows...and in 6 of them one of the top group won...of the top 4 I mentioned, actually.

Four different winners among the six biggest shows - sounds pretty competitive to me.

SCV, 2-7, Anaheim, Blue Rock and Troopers were the national top-of-the-heap, and IMO the Troopers were at the bottom end of that top group...though still a great corps, of course.

Next you had Garfield, Argonne, Madison, Blue Stars and the Cavies clustered near each other. BAC, St Rita's, BS and the Kilties were slightly below that. Not all that different than today's div I finalists.

Quite different, actually.

Your own Garfield Cadets defeated 27th twice and Blue Rock once in 1971. Argonne Rebels beat 27th and Kingsmen once each, and Troopers twice. Madison took SCV to task once, same with 27th, and twice beat Troopers. Blue Stars racked up two wins over Troopers. And the Cavaliers took SCV three times and Troopers twice.

Your next "tier" isn't separated either. Not only did Boston mix it up with your "second tier", they also beat 27th four times and Kingsmen once. Brassmen also caught 27th at one point. I think you get the idea - there was no "top 4", "top 5", "top 6", or top anything set in stone back then.

AL...question...how many of the top-5 at VFW/World Open attended? I don't see the scores on corpsreps for 71. I think most of the corps headed home after VFW's in Dallas.

North American Open: None of the top-5 attended.

South Milwaukee Spectacle? Is that one of the top shows nationally in 71? I don't see the scores on corpsreps.

American Legion Nationals had Cavaliers, Muchachos and Belleville Black Knights among the challengers to Argonne. North American Open's headliners were Kilties, Argonne, Des Plaines Vanguard, Racine Scouts and Black Knights. In South Milwaukee, it was Madison, Cavaliers, Kilties, Des Plaines and Belleville yet again.

True - none of your "top 5" attended those shows. But there were 100 corps competing in open-class. With that many more corps, some major shows took place concurrently, unlike the single set of focus shows DCI is relegated to now that there are under two dozen division I entrants.

[audiodb]

I'm not belittling any corps or posters, but I would be interested to see a comparison of the 440 corps active in 1972, the 150 (+/-) active when I got into this thing called drum corps, and the--what?--40 active today? D1/2/3 today compared to the A/B/C classification corps of yesteryear. Comparison as in, how many were elite and averaged 19 or 20 years of age, how many were "middle" of the spectrum--say 16-19 average, and how many were Kiddie Korps--literally local kids 8, 10, 12 years old. I know there were a lot of those, too.

Well, first you must realize that "top" corps back then had a wider age distribution in their more locally-oriented, longer-term membership. Nobody had the near-exclusively college-aged membership of some of today's division I units. Also, no one did three weeks of all-days followed by eight straight weeks on the road. So depending on your perspective, you could say there were no corps of yesteryear comparable to division I today.

But to answer your question as best as I can, I'd say it was a roughly even split: one-third open-class competitors, one-third units that limited themselves to local, regional and/or class A contests, and one-third corps significantly younger, smaller and/or less experienced.