Replacing Our Losses in Corps Numbers

[bawker]

Aha...here we go!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6022101567.html

Here's the thread on it as well, started by yours truly about it. :)

http://www.drumcorpsplanet.com/forums/inde...t&p=1307374

[JazzmanSA80]

I agree, but we've got to come up with a substantive proposal for how to get the kids that get cut from the top corps to go to the lower corps instead of sitting out. I agree with the lower corps size (stay at 135 at least!!!). I don't believe a draft will work for all reasons mentioned on these boards in the past. But a workable plan to spreading the talent and filling the ranks of all corps is essential (i.e. getting kids cut from one corps to join another), IMO, for all the other proposals you have here.

There are plenty of people that go out for top 12 Div. I corps and get cut around February because they might be almost good enough, but they fall short in some aspect. Problem? It's February! It's now a scramble to find a lower corps (if you still really want to march) that has holes they need to fill.

So around mid-winter, we have tons of kids who didn't make their corps of choice, and we have plenty of corps with spaces they still need filled. Hmm... what to do?

Would it not make sense for prospective corps members to register to their corps through DCI, and then after those who didn't make it are cut, they can allow DCI to release their contact information to any corps that wishes to get in touch with them? DCI could in essence keep a running database each season of kids who need a corps, and the corps who need kids can find them!

The fault really goes to the corps of course, who have inadequate information as to the status of their membership. For instance, last summer, the Blue Stars had holes for a good part of the summer, but that info was only displayed in one or two news posts on their website. If the info was more easily accessible, perhaps on a portion of DCI's web page, then they might have filled those holes by the time tour began.

[MikeD]

The way to increase the number of corps is to go back in time. This wouldn't please many of todays members and fans.

Once upon a time, in the dark ages all the corps were local, they were relativily small, the vast majority of the membership had no musical background, the staff was mostly volunteer and or low paid (for the love of the activity) and most never traveled more than a couple of hundered miles from home except for a trip to VFW or the World Open or such.

With that said, and all the moaning about the lack of quality music programs why wouldn't it be possible to go back to that model. Get some people who would be interested in starting a corps (say the NYC area with the big population). Just start with a couple parade corps and short field show and expand.

The whole idea would be to keep it local, less time intensive and inexpensive. If you had this some of the local kids might spin off to DCI.

Just a thought.

With all of the commentary regarding declining music programs, there are still thousands of HS bands out there that provide what WAS the local corps experience "in the day". Far more kids march and compete nationwide today as compared to the high point of drum corps. For many drum corps IS now seen as the marching/music equivalent to all-state band, or a music camp like Interlochen.

[Liam]

Yes, Jazzman -- this is a good start. Overall, I think DCI should take the lead in a number of ways to be a clearinghouse for shared information/opportunities among the corps. Membership as you mention, also sponsorship info, financial and organizational best practices, etc. Yes, the corps are individually run and are in a competitive atmosphere against each other, but IMO they have GOT to figure out that their shared success is more important than their individual successes (championships, etc).

[drumcat]

I have a former student who flies 1500 miles to a D3 corps -- but that's because they don't require him to do camps.

What might help dramatically is to have a single audition cut date. If everyone was cut by Feb 15, there are lots of corps who could then vie for those cuts. Instead, we now string out kids for as many weekend camp fees as we can get, then we're surprised that they don't march.

The reality is simple. If you want to see some D2/3 growth, there's only one thing you have to do, and that's start getting recruiting done directly out of the 2/3 ranks. You have to have people show up at a Spokane Thunder rehearsal from Pacific Crest. You have to have someone from Crown occasionally make an appearance at Teal Sound.

Right now, people don't do D2/3 to get picked up in D1. Even the BD/SCV b corps don't heavily dip into their own pool. Seriously, how many people really take the route that "hey, I wanna be in Vanguard, so I need to do SCVC." Not many. That's because it's rare that kids make the connection that at 16-17 years old that D2/3 will get them to D1. If all those cuts knew that was the way in, D2/3 would blossom. Since everyone knows that it's not the case, it withers.

[silvertrombone]

This is my least favorite analogy, perhaps ever on this page. How can you possibly compare a star athlete, getting paid millions, to a kid who is paying 2000 dollars and giving up their summer job and other activities, who may only have 1 shot at marching where they want. My first 2 years in cadets, I sat with rook-outs, and there were quite a few of them in the corps. Its called reality, welcome to it....

Be nice. I don't see you offering suggestions, just berating mine.

Agreed. I only marched one year, and had no prior corps experience. I wouldn't trade my year with Madison for ANY other corps. I wanted to march Scouts, and if I hadn't made the corps I was going to march Bluecoats...hardly helping the little guy there!

"My first two years in Cadets..." Nice. I did two years total. One with a 15, one with a 3. Could have done 4 total. Take what I can get without parental support.

And I'm the one called an elitist. "If I couldn't march Scouts I would have marched Blooo." If I couldn't march Phantom I would have marched Black Gold, Delta Brigade, or in my case, Sky being in Dallas at the time, I marched Sky. Wouldn't trade it for the world. Sorry you disagree and top 6 is the only way to go for you. Glad you enjoyed it. I know a bunch of guys who love Madison. To each his own.

Now, suggestions??? I see critique, but no suggestions? Lots of good, guys. Cheer real loud in the stands for your corps--one of mine is no more.

The thread was about suggestions to help the activity. I have an MBA along with my bachelors in music and two years of DC, not to mention a brain. My comments reflect this background, my education, my experience in the business world, and in DC. And you just disagree? On what grounds? Because you don't like what I said. Posh.

- Steal from the rich and give to the poor - every successful team sports league does this in some way (usually with a draft system and salary caps, neither of which can apply to drum corps). For DCI, level out not just appearance fees, but "share" payments as well. And if that's not enough, pay the lower-placing corps more than the winners. Top corps make extra money from increased souvie sales and endorsement offers.

Love it! Someone thinking from the business side of things. I mention business things, use a fancy illustration and a couple of kids ignore the point entirely.

Here's an idea... cultivate suburbs. They have the art money. Big cities aren't the way to go -- find places like Tempe, AZ, not Phoenix. Of course, it's the Phoenix area, but high-end suburbs are the place to find the subsidies to get things going.

BINGO!! And I don't mean numbers and letters. Inner city vs. suburbs. Lessee...if I want to invest a million bucks where do I take my drum corps? San Antonio, TX? Or Northeast suburbs of SA,TX? Bingo...the burbs.

New York City? Or Southlake, TX? How about the Dallas suburbs, which is right where Southlake is. You could raise an entire corps, 128, 135, 150--whatever--practically out of the ground in the Dallas suburbs. Two keys: expendable income, and baby-sitting service for the kids during the summer so mom & dad can continue with their lifestyles uninterupted. Society changed? No kidding. Parents have kids today as a social status thing, but raising them has become a burden, not part of the job. Get them hooked on DC and they go away for the entire summer!! And at $2500, its a bargain for two parents earning 6 figures!

Cynical? No. I'm proposing providing a necessary and desirable service for those willing to pay for it.

Now, could a show work in NYC? Sure, if the Yanks or the Mets wouldn't mind drawing up lines on their baseball diamond. We've marched on worse than the Yankee Stadium infield. No parking necessary--everyone hop the subs--they do anyways.

[JazzmanSA80]

Plus, one thing DCI CAN be held responsible for downplaying D2/3 corps by having them perform early at all competitions, and having their championships held in a separate venue from the D1 championships.

[silvertrombone]

Right now, people don't do D2/3 to get picked up in D1. Even the BD/SCV b corps don't heavily dip into their own pool. Seriously, how many people really take the route that "hey, I wanna be in Vanguard, so I need to do SCVC." Not many. That's because it's rare that kids make the connection that at 16-17 years old that D2/3 will get them to D1. If all those cuts knew that was the way in, D2/3 would blossom. Since everyone knows that it's not the case, it withers.

Aha, my point starts to take root. Bloom, little idea, like so many others!

Like I said. Require D2/3 or lower D1 experience for the top 6. You could even phase it in. Former champions have this requirement. Exemption for Scouts due to their current placements. If they get back to "top 6" status, you can include them. SCV and BD already have D2 corps in-house, so they can cultivate them. PR used to. Cadets did, sort of, if you count Crossmen--bad comparison, I know. But you get the idea. Scouts sort of with Southwind.

"I only want to march where I only want to march." Well, that's nice. Thanks for chiming in. But if DCI instituted this new rule, they wouldn't exactly be asking your opinion on things, now would they? If you're required to come up through AAA to play big league ball, you do what is told of you to do, now don't you?

That's the thing about rules--they don't get made by the 'players,' so to speak.

This is a matter of the top 6 liking the system that has developed and not wanting to change anything. The rest of the activity needs to revolt, but how can you? Nobody grows up (OK, generalization forthcoming) wanting to do the first D3 corps they saw at the first show they attended--they want to do top 6, B/C WHEN YOU SEE TOP 6 IT BLOWS YOUR MIND AWAY!!

OK, let's not get into an elitist conversation here. If you don't understand the all-caps statement, I'd be happy to clarify. Give me some latitude. The simple fact is that 600 show up in Rockford for auditions--enough to fill, what, 6 D3 corps?

Require a year of experience elsewhere, and those who want to march will do so. Only one year left? I sympathize with your plight. Really. In this proposal, you wouldn't be able to march Phantom like I was blessed to do. Cavies won't win you a ring like many others have achieved. But the OVERALL result, thinking beyond your plight, is that the top 6 would have to share the wealth a little bit.

Many of you say, "Boy, I'd sure like to see the top 12 shuffle a little each year." Great! Now how is that really going to happen when it hasn't been done in 20 years? Hmmm??? The top 6 is basically the same as 20 years ago. Take out Star, replace it with Blooo, and boom--same 6. Bottom 6 has changed a lot due to economics, etc.

How do you shuffle the top 6?

Instill parity. How can I compare professional athletes? Simple. Because their leagues used to not have parity, now they do. Who won the last three World Series?? Who won the last three Super Bowls?? Stanley Cups??

For professional sports, when they were instilled, it was the draft that brought parity. No more 26 Yankees champions. No more Canadian champions--at all! Well, OK, there were other factors there. But spreading around the talent in a draft was a MAJOR thing in pro sports. And it happened because the Phoenix Cardinals (perennial losers) have the same vote as the Dallas Cowboys, Pittsburgh Steelers, and SF 49ers (perennial champs).

DCI won't have parity unless it "spreads around the wealth." This won't be a draft--not feasible as already discussed. If it were a requirement to do a "lower" corps to get into the big ones, people would do it. Enough would do it to be able to do the big ones.

Does anyone in AAA do AAA for the sake of doing AAA? No. But they do it. And if they do well enough they move up.

D2/3 guys, please give me some slack in this line of thought. Some of you have expressed that it kind of berates you to be a "feeder" corps when many of you do the D2/3 corps you do TO DO THAT CORPS! I recognize your passion as equal to that of any Phantom or Cavie, etc. This is a radical change, though, and one that would change the D2/3 portion of the activity forever. I am not berating what is currently there.

The D2/3 model would probably totally change. Someone elsewhere mentioned the top D3 corps move up to D2 and bottom D2 corps move down to 3. D1/2 the same. This might require ALL corps being the same size in members. Again, require a year of D2/3 to do D1 and the model works, in my mind. And if there are a few of you "too good" to go and learn what the heck DC is all about, well, cheer for the rest of us in the stands, buddy! The one willing to do AAA gets to the big leagues. The one who graduates from HS and is "ready for the bigs" rarely, if ever, succeeds. Can exceptions be made for those rare few? Sure. Roger Clemons and Nolan Ryan didn't spend much time in the minors, and made TREMENDOUS impacts on their sport. Maybe there exists some DC equivalent--that rare talent who deserves a boost. But corps (plural) are dying. I'm not too concerned with what some 18-year old with a head too big for his shoulders to hold up thinks.

The thread didn't ask me how to be sensitive of the feelings of teenagers. It asked for suggestions on how to rescue a dying activity.

[silvertrombone]

Plus, one thing DCI CAN be held responsible for downplaying D2/3 corps by having them perform early at all competitions, and having their championships held in a separate venue from the D1 championships.

GREAT point! Didn't used to be that way. I think 94 was the first year this split like you mentioned. Nothing like fostering "elitism" than by putting smaller corps in smaller venues. I have NO problem having D2/3 finals in the big stadiums. What a thrill! No more "Pocono HS Stadium" prelim/finals. Great point.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but DCI has the big venues pretty much the entire day, no? Even if D2/3 stuff is during the day and D1 is at night I'd be for it. Further incentive to do D2/3 and feel "equal."

[rut-roh]

Requiring people to march in places they don't want to march is not, IMO, a realistic solution.