Most traditional 2016 shows?

[Hrothgar15]

Im starting to think that the prevalence of electronics, despite them being optional and not always best suited for a drum corps show, has less to do with judging requirements and more to do with designers splitting their domain between drum corps, marching band, and winter guard. They use the same approaches for each, whereas fans may only be interested in one, along with the design philosophies that activity used to be known for.

[cixelsyd]

1. It doesn't matter that it is competitive (that's why my analogy about orchestration was not competitive). Your point was that it does matter... and my analogy was insufficient because DCI is a competition. My reply was that you then have to point to the rules that demonstrate that electronic use matters to the outcome by requirement (there are none, nor is it a mandate of the idiom according to the judging panel or adjudication rubrics). You are suggesting that I put words in your mouth... but I didn't. I am showing you what you have to demonstrate in order to be right.

No - it need not be a rule. There are plenty of things that affect the competitive outcome that are not required by rule. No one is required to field over 100 members (the minimum is 30); but if you want to win, you need to be near the maximum size of 150. No rule compels that shows have titles or any unifying theme (for many decades, most did not); but these days, GE judges expect it, so everyone has it.

2. There ARE rules for drums and bugles, not merely for the idiom but for the competition (it's not that you can't compete well or poorly without them... you actually can't compete at all without either because that is the adjudicated basis for the competition)... however there are NOT rules requiring the adjudication of electronic techniques. When I correctly assert the one (drum and bugles corps must have drum and bugles) and then correctly assert the other (drum and bugle corps competition doesn't require electronics), they are not a contradiction. An analogy for your response is that a person could possibly lose a chess game by playing with checkers pieces and rules... but in reality they can't even begin to play the game without the right pieces and appropriate movements.

Again, to be technically accurate, it is not grounds for disqualification if you choose to compete in DCI without drums, or without brass instruments. The Blue Devils could show up without any drums, and bang on cymbals, garbage cans, pipes, warmup pads, or just clap, and they would be judged in percussion performance for those activities. Similarly, the Blue Devil hornline could exchange their brass intruments for vuvuzelas or conch shells, and be judged in brass performance for that. All of the above would be assessed in the ensemble and GE captions.

Taken further, the absence of a whole section is not grounds for disqualification either. Colorguard is a staple of the drum corps format, with a caption to itself, yet corps have competed on occasion without a colorguard. One such corps received a zero score in the colorguard caption, while another earned points in the caption by having horn players do flag work during a drum feature. The same could theoretically occur with brass or percussion, but that has not happened in DCI competition.

So ultimately, the reason DCI corps unanimously choose brass and percussion instruments is because they cannot compete effectively without them. It is for that same reason that they all now field colorguards (and electronics).

3. You said that you were thinking of all of this in a DCI context... yet then you talk about "corps" idioms that aren't in the context.

Well, you brought it up.

I was merely making an example based on the terms of what a "drum and bugle corps" is (meaning that there must be certain parts there in order for it to be what it is 'drums and bugles', but not electronics). In the DCI context, which is perhaps the biggest context of what drumcorps is in this hemisphere (apart from DCA) electronics are absolutely normal, yet not required. I can watch the Marine D&B corps... and the Cadets, and I am getting something remarkably similar and of the same idiom.

The Marines opt not to use electronics. Note that the Marines also do not compete in DCI contests.

Are you suggesting, historically, that the groups that have won since the addition of electronic techniques are winning because of the presence of the techniques specifically? That would be hard claim to make, considering that the same groups were winning before electronics were permitted, and the newer blood is performing at an equivalent standard in all captions, regardless of electronic usage.

Good thing I did not make that claim, then. I only pointed out that if a corps does not use electronics, they will suffer in comparison to those who do.

How much they would suffer is another question. Corps are scored in nine captions on the sum total of what their 150 members do. Electronics are judged only in the music and effect captions, but that is over half of the judging panel considering them as part of their evaluation. They are used by only 10 to 30 members, and some only use electronics momentarily (i.e. to amplify a brass solo), but others use them throughout the show (i.e. synth player, amplified marimba).

Bottom line - electronics matter. So do a lot of other things.

Thank you for the civility of your thoughts!

Likewise.

[BRASSO]

the Blue Devil hornline could exchange their brass intruments for vuvuzelas or conch shells, and be judged in brass performance for that.

Yes. Good point. Brass judges this season will no longer be judging brass lines all made up of the same brass instruments. They will be judging brass lines with completely different instruments, different combinations of brass instruments, and so forth.. As a result, the sound will be completely different with each unit coming out of these brass instruments.. Thus, for the first time ever in " Drum Corps " competition, brass judges will no longer be able to tell us which brass lines are " better " because of the now completely different instruments being utilized amongst the Corps ranks makes this impossible... of course.. The brass judges now can only merely tell us what they " like hearing " in the brass component of the performance. It should make for a very, very, interesting season in my opinion... as brass judges are not all alike in what they " like hearing " in music and in brass performance. Some like certain sounds. Others like other sounds. Its no less than human nature at work when it comes to what we prefer in brass " sounds " coming from any brass ensemble of a disparate nature instrumentation, and whose completely different musical sounds as a result, reach our ears.

Edited June 22, 2016 by BRASSO

[rancidrolla]

Yes. Good point. Brass judges this season will no longer be judging brass lines all made up of the same brass instruments. They will be judging brass lines with completely different instruments, different combinations of brass instruments, and so forth.. As a result, the sound will be completely different with each unit coming out of these brass instruments.. Thus, for the first time ever in " Drum Corps " competition, brass judges will no longer be able to tell us which brass lines are " better " because of the now completely different instruments being utilized amongst the Corps ranks makes this impossible... of course.. The brass judges now can only merely tell us what they " like hearing " in the brass component of the performance. It should make for a very, very, interesting season in my opinion... as brass judges are not all alike in what they " like hearing " in music and in brass performance. Some like certain sounds. Others like other sounds. Its no less than human nature at work when it comes to what we prefer in brass " sounds " coming from any brass ensemble of a disparate nature instrumentation, and whose completely different musical sounds as a result, reach our ears.

not completely true. corps have had flugelhorn, marching french horn, marching trombone, and other unorthodox sections/groups of players in the past. same goes for the battery. Did the cadets win the Sanford in 2003 because the finals percussion judge likes the sound of cowbells, or was it because they played the instruments they were given at a very high level? Obviously I still get what you're saying, but I hope for the sake of the activity the judges are less bias than that.

Edited June 22, 2016 by rancidrolla

[BRASSO]

not completely true. corps have had flugelhorn, marching french horn, marching trombone, and other unorthodox sections/groups of players in the past.

Well, we just disagree on this point then, no problem.

I believe a brass judge can judge a 60 member brass line compared with another 60 member brass line, when they are all utilizing the same brass instruments for the evaluation comparison to determine which is played musically " better ". Yes, it is a subjective evaluation, but nonetheless, the judges's training, experience, and good ear allows it to be done, imo. But can a judge judge which orchestra is " better " if one orchestra utilizes one group of instruments, while another, another form of instrumentation ? No, I do not believe so. I believe they can only tell us which of the 2 orchestras they " like " better . Add in 12 or 40 more orchestras, with different instruments utilized, and it makes the impossible, solidified as such, imo. Now, if 2 orchestras are utilizing the same musical instruments, can a well trained, experienced, judge of orchestras tell us, in their professional opinion, which is " better " ? Yes. I do. While subjective in nature, the ability to compare apples to apples here can be made in such a like kind comparison of the brass instruments quality of playing. Now having said all this, can a DCI GE Music judge, properly judge a show where the musical units utilize such disparate instrumentation ( augmented by additional different synthetic sounds, among the units to be judged ) its its musical general effect capacities ? Yes, they can, imo. But a brass judge ? No. I do not believe so at all. Their evaluation thus becomes wholly within the " what sound do I like " realm.... not which is " better ".

Edited June 22, 2016 by BRASSO

[HornTeacher]

Well, we just disagree on this point then, no problem.

I believe a brass judge can judge a 60 member brass line compared with another 60 member brass line, when they are all utilizing the same brass instruments for the evaluation comparison to determine which is played musically " better ". Yes, it is a subjective evaluation, but nonetheless, the judges's training, experience, and good ear allows it to be done, imo. But can a judge judge which orchestra is " better " if one orchestra utilizes one group of instruments, while another, another form of instrumentation ? No, I do not believe so. I believe they can only tell us which of the 2 orchestras they " like " better . Add in 12 or 40 more orchestras, with different instruments utilized, and it makes the impossible, solidified as such, imo. Now, if 2 orchestras are utilizing the same musical instruments, can a well trained, experienced, judge of orchestras tell us, in their professional opinion, which is " better " ? Yes. I do. While subjective in nature, the ability to compare apples to apples here can be made in such a like kind comparison of the brass instruments quality of playing. Now having said all this, can a DCI GE Music judge, properly judge a show where the musical units utilize such disparate instrumentation ( augmented by additional different synthetic sounds, among the units to be judged ) its its musical general effect capacities ? Yes, they can, imo. But a brass judge ? No. I do not believe so at all. Their evaluation thus becomes wholly within the " what sound do I like " realm.... not which is " better "

Though a matter of splitting the cilia of an amoeba, the problem simply lies in the use of the word "better." We, as listeners/observers, might deduce from a tally and table of scores which corps were "better" than others. However, is it not true that the judge's first job is to address the "proficiency," and level to which that is attained, of each corps or competition caption? Each judge determines the level of proficiency of that corps subset which he or she judges, and only that subset. Yes, "what do I like," "what music turns me on," and/or "what sound do I find to be most representative" may very well be a subconscious entity -- one which simply cannot be helped. But to think that those factors become a major focus leading to evaluation? I would dearly hope not. Otherwise, DCI judges would be little more than a bunch of "Dance Fever" judges running around saying "Hmmmm....nice groove...good steps. I really liked that. I think I'll give it a 98."

[C.Holland]

The Marines opt not to use electronics. Note that the Marines also do not compete in DCI contests.

While they opt to use bugles, and go without a large front ensemble, color guard, or electronics, they did realize that to recruit more effectively, that they needed to update their performance style.

Last year was a great year for that group. They always play and move extremely well, but the style of show hasn't always been WOW compared to everything else we see on the field. Last year was the first we've started to see some different music choices and drill from the group.

[BRASSO]

, is it not true that the judge's first job is to address the "proficiency," and level to which that is attained, of each corps or competition caption? Each judge determines the level of proficiency of that corps subset which he or she judges,

Yes. The Brass caption is principally an execution and proficiency caption.

To simply my point here, lets set aside for the moment asking the brass judges to compare 72-80 member brass lines with other 72-80 member brass lines ( upwards of 160 brass players )

Can we ask a brass judge to judge the execution, proficiency, demand, etc levels of 6 trumpet players ? and rank them by ability as to which is " better " proficiency and execution wise on the trumpet ? Yes. while its a subjective endeavor, its possible to have an experienced, well trained person with trumpet playing do so. Score them and rank them.

Now, lets change the situation. Can we ask a brass judge, judge which is " better " in the brass competition if the 6 are comprised of a trumpet player, a tuba player, a trombone player, a french horn player, a baritone player ? No. Its illogical, irrational, and impossible. Thats why we have separate categories for each to compete in, in the DCI I & E competition, and be judged accordingly there.

That said, can we ASK a brass judge to evaluate different brass sounds in DCI Field competition, and ASK them to determine which is " better " ? ... now that the brass instrumentation mix amongst the Corps has changed so dramatically, thus altering in an unprecedented and significant way the brass sounds coming from each Corps ? Sure, we do this now. Does it make much sense to ask them to do the impossible like this here ? No. It does not make any sense, imo. Does doing something that makes little to no logical and rational sense stop people from doing things that make little to no sense ? No. However, does such asking of the brass judges to do the impossible ultimately lead to frustration on the part of on lookers who might later ask for a rational and logical explanation that makes any sense as to how a brass judge arrived at his or her determination of which of the brass playing was " better" in playing abilities ? I would tend to think so. The absence of brass caption recaps to the public will only lead to more head scratching, imo. Whats the solution ? I suppose eliminating the brass caption subset altogether, might be one possible solution. Don't make the brass judges attempt to score and rank these brass sections as to which is " better " with their execution and proficiency when no such determination can rationally and logically be made anymore, imo.

Edited June 22, 2016 by BRASSO

[ShortAndFast]

Yes. Good point. Brass judges this season will no longer be judging brass lines all made up of the same brass instruments. They will be judging brass lines with completely different instruments, different combinations of brass instruments, and so forth.. As a result, the sound will be completely different with each unit coming out of these brass instruments.. Thus, for the first time ever in " Drum Corps " competition, brass judges will no longer be able to tell us which brass lines are " better " because of the now completely different instruments being utilized amongst the Corps ranks makes this impossible... of course..

What's different this year? This is the 3rd season for trombones and horns, right?

More broadly, I am not a brass judge, but I am pretty sure that when I compare two brass lines, I am thinking about what they are playing and how well they play it. It's hard for me to believe that a DCI brass judge can't assess tone quality, articulation, stylistic expressiveness, intonation, consistency between players (you know, all the stuff on the brass sheet) equally well whether the players are on marching baritones or trombones or mellophones or flugel horns or whatever.

[corpsband]

What's different this year? This is the 3rd season for trombones and horns, right?

More broadly, I am not a brass judge, but I am pretty sure that when I compare two brass lines, I am thinking about what they are playing and how well they play it. It's hard for me to believe that a DCI brass judge can't assess tone quality, articulation, stylistic expressiveness, intonation, consistency between players (you know, all the stuff on the brass sheet) equally well whether the players are on marching baritones or trombones or mellophones or flugel horns or whatever.