MikeD Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Why?What is there to be afraid of in our "scores don't matter, everyone wins" shift change we've seen since we've moved towards more education, less "training". The difference between the top four or five corps is splitting hairs most years...this forum proves that, and its been said many times that its just "varying degrees of excellence". Are we just paying lip service to the kids by saying that? Not many people each year who have marched come onto DCP (or in real life) and bemoan what score they got. So things might change a little bit, maybe we get a new champion...maybe entertainment and "throwing tricks" (cue elitist reponse to that from some, even though things like Cadets bass drum fire drill and their "play each others horns" got some of the biggest applause) becomes a little more important. Is that really so bad? No, it's not "lip service"...that is why placing the evaluation in the hands of untrained people is such a bad idea. The members deserve the best adjudication they can receive...that means having people trained in using a defined system to rank and rate the corps as accurately as possible. The "let's have the mayor judge GE" approach encorporates far more bias than the current system, as the mayor will just go with the group he or she "likes", regardless of the merits of the show. "Oooh...they have cure uniforms....oh, look at the pretty girls/guys....etc....". Having no criteria or training is a complete disservice to the hard work and effort the members put in all summer, IMO. Yes, the top 4 or 5 are just varying degrees of excellence. That's why you need people with training and experience to evaluate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 If we can add amps and electronics and change the on-field product to meet certain parameters, why are we so afraid of changing the way its judged? I think THIS idea being floated is terrible, not that ANY idea to be floated would be terrible. If you can come up with an idea that does cheapen the results...but actually improves on them, I'm all ears. I kind of like the idea of maybe adding a professional from a related field somehow...e.g. a theater designer, dance professional, non-drum-corps composer or performing musician, etc....and factoring them into the mix in a small way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bawker Posted July 27, 2007 Author Share Posted July 27, 2007 I think THIS idea being floated is terrible, not that ANY idea to be floated would be terrible. If you can come up with an idea that does cheapen the results...but actually improves on them, I'm all ears. I kind of like the idea of maybe adding a professional from a related field somehow...e.g. a theater designer, dance professional, non-drum-corps composer or performing musician, etc....and factoring them into the mix in a small way. Wouldn't that be a great step into giving a little bit more nudge towards creative thought rather than what worked the previous year in BOA/DCI/WGI? Agreement with you is so rare here, I may bookmark this post. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Wouldn't that be a great step into giving a little bit more nudge towards creative thought rather than what worked the previous year in BOA/DCI/WGI? Agreement with you is so rare here, I may bookmark this post. :P :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideways Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 If they peform John Cage's 4'33'' that will allow for plenty of exploration of narration without covering up the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toby Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 If they peform John Cage's 4'33'' that will allow for plenty of exploration of narration without covering up the music. The point of 4:33 was to get the audience to listen to the sounds in the venue....narration would cover that up. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideways Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Don't you think the audience would have to be told what to listen for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) Why?What is there to be afraid of in our "scores don't matter, everyone wins" shift change we've seen since we've moved towards more education, less "training". You make a good point, but it does matter to me who judges this activity, at least from a standpoint of performance (marching, music, flags). Although I have no desire to see the tick system return, I still like this activity as a competitive one, and in that sense we need judges who are trained to see the difference and mark it accordingly. This is not so much the creative part of the activity but it is where the marching members make their biggest contribution (their performance of the show). To me, this aspect is more important than GE, and it's less subjective. Because the average person can see the difference between Pioneer and the Cavaliers, as has been mentioned, is exactly why we need excellent judges for this more objective part of judging. The difference between the top four or five corps is splitting hairs most years...this forum proves that, and its been said many times that its just "varying degrees of excellence". Are we just paying lip service to the kids by saying that? Yes! Well, at least sometimes. In my opinion there have been many years where things have not been that close. The scores may say one thing, but I see and hear another. However, with corps like the Bluecoats and Carolina Crown delivering shows equally as good from a GE perspective, and every bit as good from a performance perspective (at least with Bluecoats), the question then becomes two sided: 1) how can those corps finally pass the big boys, and 2) once they do will we see a shift in ideas and perhaps a new direction in creativity? My theory has always been that even if you equal the big boys in performance, you had little chance of beating them in GE if your show was designed in the cookie-cutter method which was largely based on what the big boys had already given the activity. Not until Bluecoats or Carolina really breaks free of the "mold" that currently exists in terms of show design will they win and truly lead us into the next generation of ideas and design. And not just those two corps, but I mention them because they are firmly in position these days. But at the moment the Cavaliers are the perfect example of the old Cadets T-shirt that said we zig when they zag (or something like that). They do. Everyone seems so focused on the design mold that currently exists that seeing into the future is difficult and taking new ideas and translating them to the marching idiom is downright hard to do when it is easier to follow the examples right in front of your nose. This is why The Cavaliers always look so fresh to me. Even this year their visual design and GE seems to stand above everyone because they always make a few tweaks and add a few twists to their already proven formula, and it flat out works and is exciting. But those that copy or imitate in some way, while they come up with great ideas, their implementation of those ideas is not always earth shattering or significant enough to make one look beyond the Cavaliers method to see an interpretation that is just as good (not better). This is also why I give the Blue Devils so much credit. They don't exactly bring anything earth-shattering to the field in terms of design or GE, but they don't play follow-the-leader like the others, and they always perform the dickens out of their shows. And that brings me back to the judging of performance. I, like you, want to see the creative wheels start to spin again and see the somewhat stagnant nature of this activity move forward. And by moving forward I do not mean for shows to get more demanding, or for more 8 count and 4 count sets to be implemented, or for the music to become even more choppy than it already is. We need something fresh the way the Cavaliers were last year with their robotic show, but it has to have that effect yet be something totally new and different. But to me it's not the idea so much as the implementation of that idea. Although the Blue Devils do not bring the innovation to the field in terms of visual and GE the way others do, it would be wrong to allow someone other than a trained judge to reward them (or not) for the absolute excellence they bring in performance. And for me, even if the show is not all that fresh or new or innovating, I still get no bigger kick than to sit back and watch a drum corps that flat out knows how to play and march. They are the definition of a form of entertainment that we all take for granted when talking about all these other earth-shaking ideas in drum corps, and that form of entertainment is called Excellence! JW Edited July 28, 2007 by jwillis35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAMystreaux Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Generally, though, isn't this the case?-BD plays lots of high notes. -BD/Cadets/Coats are pretty loud. -Cavaliers and Cadets move pretty fast. Anyone at a show can usually tell who the best corps there are...and the logical progression throughout the night of good to better even helps that along. Maybe at a show with BD and 'Coats, 'Coats come out on top, since amateur judge "X" thought the theme was a little well-rounded. Perhaps at a show with Crown and Cavaliers...it's a little closer than usual. I would imagine "big dogs" would still be the big dogs even in this judging scheme (after all, there are still techincal performance and execution judges)...but maybe corps like Colts, Scouts, Crown sneak up a spot or two. If we can add amps and electronics and change the on-field product to meet certain parameters, why are we so afraid of changing the way its judged? Madison is pretty loud too. Crossmen have a fast drill also. I had tons of younger people around me at SA who thought Academy had one of the coolest shows there. I know some of you here agree, but IMO that could not be further from the truth. I dunno. . .its not all about numbers and competition, but if I were marching my butt off in a top corps and got placed lower than a lesser corps based on a novice opinion from the audience, I would ######. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadetsaholic Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 It's been a while on this board, but here I go with my suggestion: First, just coming back from Iraq with the US Navy, I think Hopkins is right on with a DoI show. But, I don't know if anyone has thought about this idea--how did the DoI affect other nations, i.e. France, England, Belgium. I think it would be awesome to use the French perspective, since they helped us win the War, and then their own people took up arms against their Rulers, partly because they saw their American brothers/sisters do the exact same thing against a tyranny. One song I think is amazing, and I don't know if they can ever use it would be: "Cloud Burst" from the "Grand Canyon Symphony". Let me know what you all think! I would love to hear people's opinion, and if you all like it, I'll be sure to find music and set up a "script" if you will, no talking though, I hear people don't like the Cadets for that reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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