QUESTION about Hopkins, Blame

[tptchic]

Not to nitpick because you don't seem like a flame thrower or anything,, but you said in your first sentence here that you don't think we'll find one Cadets "that would tell you they were dissapointed with how the show turned out, narration included "...... but then our last sentence states you bet that " most of the Cadets feel that they did win, even though they were handed the silver ". Which is it ?

As for the narration and whether it's inclusion may have cost The Cadets the title or not is open to speculation. I think not. But who really knows ? My guess, there is not a single poster on this DCP that can tell us how " Narration " is judged. In other words, what " good narration " is from " bad narration" or from just " mediocre narration ". Until posters and fans are knowledgeable about the judging evaluation criterian in Narration, we will always be in the dark as to whether a Corps that used heavy doses of narration to convey the show theme message to the audience should have won or not. And that includes the member of The Cadet who you believe think they should have won. How do they know unless they know how the front and center narrators were judged in their narration as part of their show ?

I don't think I understand what your asking can you explain

Also, I wonder how they judge narration. Honestly I dont think they know how. I also wonder how many people atually stop and think about the difficulties that come with it. For example, having eact timing, all the equipment issues, people not being out of breath....

[Triple Forte]

However, he also didn't force Mark Arnold, Kevin Smith or other Division I directors to vote for it.

Very true. But being he spear headed the effort......one can say he is the most responsible for the change.

I think thats fair.....

Edited August 16, 2007 by Triple Forte

[stifled4mallettechnique]

For those of you in support of the Cadets' narration, I have two questions. Please, those that are anti-narration need not respond. I know how you feel.

1) Did you like it? I'm not asking if you appreciated the "innovation" or the right of the corps to do it, or who is a Cadets fan. I mean, did you like the actual narration? Did you think it was done well? Did you find the content uplifting or entertaining? There are no right or wrong answers... I just want to hear your personal opinions.

2) If you were judging narration, how would you do it? I'm not asking you to guess how DCI is doing it, or how you think they should. I want to hear how you would do it, and how your judging would have affected the scores.

I ask that nobody attack any sincere response to these questions (but I know the chances of that...). I honestly want to understand the feelings from both sides of the debate.

[MelloSteph]

For those of you in support of the Cadets' narration, I have two questions. Please, those that are anti-narration need not respond. I know how you feel.

1) Did you like it? I'm not asking if you appreciated the "innovation" or the right of the corps to do it, or who is a Cadets fan. I mean, did you like the actual narration? Did you think it was done well? Did you find the content uplifting or entertaining? There are no right or wrong answers... I just want to hear your personal opinions.

I liked it to a point... There was an excess, however. I think the point could have been gotten across without going so far with it. The execution was mostly done well... at times it felt like it was being recited vs. performed. There were parts that were uplifting... but others that were kind of cheesy (but not funny cheesy like Crown). The Martha Graham quote for example... however appropriate or poigniant, it was out of place in a sea of opinions and personal statements.

I'm all for progress, but the extent to which it was taken in this show really made me lose focus on the music and visual aspect that the kids have worked so hard on. There were some brilliant moments in that show, and it took me three viewings to get past the narration to see a majority of them.

2) If you were judging narration, how would you do it? I'm not asking you to guess how DCI is doing it, or how you think they should. I want to hear how you would do it, and how your judging would have affected the scores.

I think that if it is to be included, it should be a separate judge somehow... All of the other judges have enough to worry about as it is. If it's to be put under another judge, I'd say a perc. judge because often the vocals come from the pit or other percussionists.

edited to better get my thought across...

Edited August 16, 2007 by MelloSteph

[KingJoeVII]

For those of you in support of the Cadets' narration, I have two questions. Please, those that are anti-narration need not respond. I know how you feel.

1) Did you like it? I'm not asking if you appreciated the "innovation" or the right of the corps to do it, or who is a Cadets fan. I mean, did you like the actual narration? Did you think it was done well? Did you find the content uplifting or entertaining? There are no right or wrong answers... I just want to hear your personal opinions.

2) If you were judging narration, how would you do it? I'm not asking you to guess how DCI is doing it, or how you think they should. I want to hear how you would do it, and how your judging would have affected the scores.

I ask that nobody attack any sincere response to these questions (but I know the chances of that...). I honestly want to understand the feelings from both sides of the debate.

I dont really know why you expect to not reopen the keg of worms with this post, but in the spirit of fun, I'll bite...

1.) yes I liked most of it. Maybe it was just the personal connection I had with marching Cadets, but the narration actually made sense and was sincere. With all the irony and cynicism around today it was refreshing to hear something so genuine. Some parts of the show (as with any kind of show) worked better than others...the first part of the show is an absolute masterpiece - the collection of disparate "this I believe..." quotes set against Appalachian Spring, then the music and drill intensifying to the "we believe in now!" impact and the loudest chords you may ever heard...one of the shinning moments in drum corps show design. Also amazing is the "we can do this" double tonging section.

Blue shades was take it or leave it. It changed so much over the course of the summer that it was difficult to get handle on it design wise...The basics block/rehearsal stuff was a little predictable and trite at times, but at least it was integrated well with the music...

The closer started out pretty bad, but by the end of the summer, most of the initially laughable stuff was refined and actually was pretty powerful.

2.) the first thing I would do to judge narration is to try and understand the effect they are going for...amplified vocals can serve a variety of purposes and an evaluator must be certain to approach the use of it from the correct one. Its kind of like you wouldnt try and evaluate "The Firebird" using a jazz paradigm.

next I would evaluate the content of the narration...does it add depth to the show concept? is it merely gratuitous?

after that I would evaluate the execution of the amplified vocals - balance, timbre, inflection, clarity, etc....

[Lincoln]

It's a sad fact that Hopkins doesn't care what his members think, what a large chunk of the audience thinks or what his own staff thinks. It's all about George and his "vision."

In 2006 the Cadets started with "History Repeating" at the beginning of the show (there were complaints about the opener). A couple of weeks before the end of the season they removed that piece and reintroduced "The Zone" opener from 2005. What caused that change? Was it the placement of the corps during the season up to that point (I believe they were in 5th place)? Was the use of a singer without horns at the beginning of the show no less a "vision?"

In 2007 there is an even a bigger controversy over their use of narration. If the Cadets were coasting in 5th place again would the final product have been altered prior to the end of the season to improve the score?

Is "vision" only important when the scores are right? Based on 2006, it looks like "vision" doesn't always count.

Edited August 16, 2007 by LincolnV

[DrumCorpsFan27]

The members choose to be narrators it wasnt the other way around. They didn't HAVE to do anything. I think they knew what they were in for.

Yes, they chose to be narrators, but that is not what X DM was asking,

Or was the show theme essentially somewhat hollow and hypocritical because the reality here is the narrators had little or no "choice " at all when they schooled the audiences about " their life "and " the value of having choices " and " they get to choose ".... and blah blah blah ?

I was responding to this. The narrators had no choice in the words they spoke when they "schooled the audience." They were not the words of the narrators but of the director.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

....what was to be narrated wasn't even decided on the first camp or the second or probably the third so thats your first mistake and secondly the corps was asked who wanted to be a narrator, which means....yes they did have a choice. And its the cadets, voice was expected this year so why would you come audition into the corps if you hated it so much?

Again, the narrators had no choice on what was said. It was not a reflection of their own attitudes. They may have agreed with the words, but they had no choice in their design.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

I'll agree with that but I dont think you would find one that would tell you the were disappointed with how the show turned out (narration included). In doing something different, there will always be critisim. Now about the staff, I have never seen a more devoted and passionate group of people, so take that how you will. Also, not to say anything against BD, but I'd like to bet most of the cadets feel that they did win, even though they were handed silver.

I'll never say the kids were disappointed until they tell me they were disappointed. Also, I never said the staff wasn't dedicated, just that there were several who had reservations about it, according to ~G~ and his sources.

[DrumCorpsFan27]

Dave,

Were you posting an Email from George to you without his permission?

I don't have the actual email, but I remember what he said. I don't think I need permission to state what he said to me. He did not ask me to keep it confidential.

Edited August 16, 2007 by DrumCorpsFan27