Time for Rifles to Go?

[rut-roh]

My favorite "wtf" moment as it relates to rifles and the theme of show being out of whack: 1993 Cadets.

My girlfriend at the time put it perfectly when she said, "Why are the knights spinning guns??"

I never really noticed until then, but after considering it, I agreed. Especially when you notice that they had just been spinning very large looking broad swords, which was entirely theme appropriate.

Just thought that was interesting...

[westpaguardguy]

Okay, I'll bite.

Step 1 - .......

Step 2 - .......

Step 3 - .......

Step 4 - .......

Step 5 ish - .......

Last note:........

There are so many activities out there that just "don't make sense." Many people have brought this up before earlier in this thread so I won't.

That is all.

Carry on.

:)

This is the best post I have read in regards to this mundane topic.

Thank you Cathy.

[Cathie Wiener]

My favorite "wtf" moment as it relates to rifles and the theme of show being out of whack: 1993 Cadets.

My girlfriend at the time put it perfectly when she said, "Why are the knights spinning guns??"

I never really noticed until then, but after considering it, I agreed. Especially when you notice that they had just been spinning very large looking broad swords, which was entirely theme appropriate.

Just thought that was interesting...

Believe me, I understand. One of my favoite quotes at Finals this year was from a friend's mom that knows this much about corps. At the beginning of Boston's show when the men in the guard picked up rifles off of their easels and started spinning, my friend's mom said, "Artists with guns. What does that mean?" It was pretty funny.

This is the best post I have read in regards to this mundane topic.

Thank you Cathy.

You're welcome.

[deftguy]

Okay, I'll bite.

Step 2 - Manufacturing

We easily persuade the multiple rifle manufacturers to have a different pattern established and manufactured even though the thousands of colleges, high schools, junior high and WGI groups are still using the standard rifle design. Don't worry we'll make it worth their while. In the first year we may purchase 720 non-rifles or so (~60 corps (DCI and DCA) x 12 non-rifles) to make it worth your time and effort, that is whichever of the manufacturers choose to actually do this. If we are blessed and three manufacturers go with it, great now they should each get the purchase of about 240 non-rifles. Could you please pump those out as soon as possible, by the way, so ALL the corps can purchase them ASAP? Oooh, the money is rolling in. So woo hoo, we now have manufacturers.

This is not even necessary. No one needs to re-create another kind of spinning object. There have been many things spun over the years that are non rifles. No manufacturer was involved, it just took the creativity of the designer to use and incorporate other kinds of objects in place of the rifle. When I marched in the 80's, the rifle went the way of the gooney bird(Only the Cavaliers had a consistant rifle line throughout the 80's that I know of) only to be replaced by everyone on flags, wings, comma's and various other objects. No replacement, just the same kind of creativity they had in the 80's

Step 3 - Spinning the d*mn things.

You said...

Learning to spin a new piece of equipment is NOT the same as learning to step off with a different foot. Not even a close equivalent. I agree with the "hard reset" that you mention. I get that. Small problem. We "hard reset" the skills of these kids/young adults oh... except they still have winterguard and band spinning their rifles all season long so now, they're completely messed up with muscle memory. Granted a good guard member who is familiar with rifles should be able to pick up anything and spin it; broom stick, curtain rod, BAC's "crutch", etc. except that not every corps starts with a line of members that are top spinners. For some people their ability on the high school rifle is decent and their entire reportoire consists of simple basics and their high school's field routine from that year. And now these kids cold start on a new piece of equipment when they at least had the basics of the rifle. Now we've just put the guards that were at an average level to start with even further behind. But okay, we're in corps, we're hardcore, we figure it out. Go us.

Cathy, how much spinning do you see in most DCI shows? From what I saw this year nobody actually spun their rifle. There was much tossing, but no single or double time spins in sight. That goes for WGI and high school band. Rifles are used so differently these days that any arguement that advances this as a reason NOT to change is ineffective at best.

There is already a presidence set before us that shows what was done in the absence of rifles. Phantoms colorguards of the eighties shows us(excluding 86), the Blue Devils, SCV (early 80's) and so on and so on.

Step 4 - Train the judges.

Awesome. Free pass for the weapons. Battery... we know your technique, so we know what to judge. Ha ha on you. Horns... we know what your technique is so we're going to judge it. Ha ha on you. Pit... we know your technique and we're going to judge you on it. Ha ha on you. Flags... we know your technique and you're getting judged on it. Ha ha on you. Non-rifles... we know your.... um. Never mind. Just do your best. It doesn't matter anyway. Your technique isn't being judged (shh... we don't know it), but it doesn't matter. We're just going to judge if it looks like it's being executed properly. (Again... shhh don't tell.) Sorry, I don't buy it.

I wonder what a judge does when a corps doesn't field rifles? Do they just not judge the guard? No. The guard is judged on their flag technique, and the judge judges the effectivness of what IS brought to the field. How do you judge guard members using props such as horses, long sticks, and various other things? The amount of dancing and movement incorporated into most shows could easily replace what is done with rifles(except the Cavaliers perhaps).

How about we actually train the judges on the basic technique of our pretty new non-rifle and show them what to expect while judging them? If we actually got this far, there are no worries from me. I give the judges credit and know that they will be just as befuddled judging the new equipment as those of us spinning them. On a whole, the judges are smart people. They'll figure it out.

You are right, they'll figure it out.

Step 5 ish - Training retention.

Cool, we made it through our first season of the non-rifle and everything was great. A little question on some of the judging, but we'll survive. Now kids/young adults, make sure you practice during the Fall so when camps roll around, we're awesome!!! What? You don't have any of these at home to practice with? What? Your high school/college doesn't use these? What? You have no other access to these types of equipment? Okay. Just make sure you buy one with your own money and practice it during the Fall and, hopefully, it won't mess up your rifle technique for your other performance group.

Geeze, I wonder how colorguard members from the 1981-86 Phantom guard delt with this. Or the 1978-1987 SCV guard members? Or the Blue Devils guard in the years they didn't have rifles? Guard members adjust, just like judges would.

One obvious note, I know that if something is created similar enough to a rifle, but doesn't "look" like a rifle, the technique issue of this goes away. However, BK did it in 1993 I think and they still pretty much looked like rifles. In my very limited creative mind I don't see how you're going to keep the same proportion to keep the spinning technique as close to it currently is as possible and not somehow still have the shape of the rifle. I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't know how.

It can be done, I assure you. With all of the brain power in DCI, it can be done. Wait...maybe I am giving too much credit to some. I mean...designers these days cannot figure out new idea's with equipment they already have, hence why we have all the rule changes to add stuff.

Last note: Though I am posting this to be facetious, I'm not a complete and total naysayer. If somehow this actually was to come to fruition, I wouldn't be throwing a fit for the loss of rifles if there were an equivalent that was just as entertaining to watch and just as hardcore to spin. As I've said before in my posts, I DO NOT believe rifles need to be changed aesthetically to soothe the consciences of these "hypothetical" they'd-sponsor-if-only corporations. But I've already stated my opinion on that one. However, I'm cool with the idea that the rifle just doesn't fit some themes. I see how an outsider to the activity would say that. But I'm going to contradict myself here and say, "But it's drum corps. Rifles are inherent to the drum corps activity. No theme cohesion needed."

My perspective does not support the PC correct notion of the OP. My perspective is based solely on what guards actually do with rifles(they don't spin them, they just toss them), and it's relationship to the costume and theme(they seem out of place in more and more shows). I do not want the rifle to go away, but if they do I would bat an eyelash because they have largely lost their visual effectivness in today show design.

There are so many activities out there that just "don't make sense." Many people have brought this up before earlier in this thread so I won't.

That is all.

Carry on.

:)

Edit: for grammatical errors.

Drum corps is a profoundly niche product, so it cannot afford to "not make sense".

Edited August 29, 2007 by deftguy

[GMichael1230]

Scouts had a rifle line every year of the eighties also besides Cavaliers. I think Troopers did too but I would have to go back and watch. Maybe even Boston, and yes including 1983. Freelancers did too, but not in 86 obviously. Bluecoats had a rifle line every year in their existence also. Spirit of Atlanta and Suncoast Sound did also.

~G~

I also think every guard title went to a corps that had rifles in their program....that is, every year except 1988, Phantom Regiment had no rifles in their "Romeo and Juliet" program. and maybe even 1990 to the Blue Devils who had various odd equipment but not rifles.

Edited August 29, 2007 by GMichael1230

[Cathie Wiener]

This is not even necessary. No one needs to re-create another kind of spinning object. There have been many things spun over the years that are non rifles. No manufacturer was involved, it just took the creativity of the designer to use and incorporate other kinds of objects in place of the rifle. When I marched in the 80's, the rifle went the way of the gooney bird(Only the Cavaliers had a consistant rifle line throughout the 80's that I know of) only to be replaced by everyone on flags, wings, comma's and various other objects. No replacement, just the same kind of creativity they had in the 80's

I agree with you about the creativity that is possible out there. I know there have been some wonderful props used and I'm not against them, but this topic was presented as getting rid of rifles and later sponsorship worries were brought into the mix. My argument is, sure, whatever, get rid of rifles, but there's has to be another standard piece of equipment to replace them. Making them for the corps guards was brought up and I replied. I'm sorry, I just can't see each corps being flags, flags, some hard-to-see sabres, more flags and some props, spinnable or not.

Cathy, how much spinning do you see in most DCI shows? From what I saw this year nobody actually spun their rifle. There was much tossing, but no single or double time spins in sight. That goes for WGI and high school band. Rifles are used so differently these days that any arguement that advances this as a reason NOT to change is ineffective at best.

When I say "spinning" rifles, I don't mean it literally. As a guard person, I use that term to say I perform with rifles. Do I think there's way too much dancing and not enough spinnin'? You bet. But that's a whole other topic that has been heavily discussed. As far as them being used differently these days, I never used this as an argument for or against change.

There is already a presidence set before us that shows what was done in the absence of rifles. Phantoms colorguards of the eighties shows us(excluding 86), the Blue Devils, SCV (early 80's) and so on and so on.

I wonder what a judge does when a corps doesn't field rifles? Do they just not judge the guard? No. The guard is judged on their flag technique, and the judge judges the effectivness of what IS brought to the field. How do you judge guard members using props such as horses, long sticks, and various other things? The amount of dancing and movement incorporated into most shows could easily replace what is done with rifles(except the Cavaliers perhaps).

Again, props here and there, I'm all for it. Even for a full show... up to the corps. This is the choice of each corps' design staff. But when making these decisions leadership is definitely aware there will be questions and fluxes on how these props are going to be judged. It's basically an unknown. Perfect example... 1992 SCV. Started with a plethora of really wonderful props in the beginning of the year and ended up with only one flag in the entire show at Finals. This is the risk the corps takes when they do that. I'm not saying in any way a show cannot be judged properly without rifles. There are many great shows without rifle lines, but to take them completely out of the activity and make them unavailable without an acceptable replacement seems unfair. For those lower echelon corps that don't have the luxury to maybe create props or just aren't going to try something new they are a cheap, standardized alternative to flags, flags and more flags.

Geeze, I wonder how colorguard members from the 1981-86 Phantom guard delt with this. Or the 1978-1987 SCV guard members? Or the Blue Devils guard in the years they didn't have rifles? Guard members adjust, just like judges would.

It can be done, I assure you. With all of the brain power in DCI, it can be done. Wait...maybe I am giving too much credit to some. I mean...designers these days cannot figure out new idea's with equipment they already have, hence why we have all the rule changes to add stuff.

You're kind of making the point I was referring to. The guards you mention are upper echelon guards. I'm going to make an assumption they are very strong spinners and thus a change of equipment for them is rather easy after a few awkward tries. You get the lower echelon guards (lower end of Div 1 (though not so much any more) and Div II/III) and these people may struggle a bit. They're typically not extremely strong spinners but are decent and capable with rifles. If rifles were taken out of the mix with no alternative, they are instantly at a disadvantage. Or if the alternative was presented, but it isn't similar enough to the basic rifle structure, they are the ones that will be affected the most. They are typically younger than the higher level corps and thus are still involved in school programs so they still have rifle duties with their other performing units, but now have to deal with something new that's not natural to them and doesn't comply with their rifle muscle memory.

As far as the creativity of the designers, I've never questioned that. What I said was "I'm not saying it can't be done. I just don't know how." I personally have never seen a spinnable prop that has come close to the logistics and weight distribution of the rifle. BK's 93 props are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. They were cool and all, but they still looked like rifles which defeats the purpose of this topic in the first place.

My perspective is based solely on what guards actually do with rifles(they don't spin them, they just toss them), and it's relationship to the costume and theme(they seem out of place in more and more shows). I do not want the rifle to go away, but if they do I would bat an eyelash because they have largely lost their visual effectivness in today show design.

That is your personal opinion and I understand it, I just don't happen to agree. Nothing we can do about that.

Drum corps is a profoundly niche product, so it cannot afford to "not make sense".

I don't understand what you mean by that.

It doesn't matter what changes are brought to drum corps, it's never going to "make sense." Just like football, futbol, basketball and badminton don't "make sense" to many people.

I mean from the "outside" it is a pretty crazy activity. Come on.

So there you go. I'm done for now. I'm off to catch a plane to NY for DCA Finals.

:)

[RCFKING]

By far the most liberal bleeding heart opening of a topic I've ever seen on this site.You must be kidding!

Do you think DC should use elbow pads, knee pads and DOT approved protective headgear.

maybe vitual DC so everyone wins and nobody looses. God forbid that someone win and someone not.

This activity came from military roots. Also if you did not know,.....there made of wood!!!!!!!!!!!!

RF

[Cop]

Believe me, I understand. One of my favoite quotes at Finals this year was from a friend's mom that knows this much about corps. At the beginning of Boston's show when the men in the guard picked up rifles off of their easels and started spinning, my friend's mom said, "Artists with guns. What does that mean?" It was pretty funny.

You're welcome.

Mayebe you should have explained to the her about the rich tradition of Drum Corps and where it came from prior to the first Corps to to take the field.

[Cop]

....there made of wood!!!!!!!!!!!!

RF

"Oh No, they are gonna shoot someone!"

[SF2K4]

So at what point do we say that sabres, flags, and uniforms should also constantly change with show design?

And then at what point do member dues pass $5000?