Muchachos 1975

[Fran Haring]

So did Ford.

AND the guy he pardoned.

You suck, too.

Fran

[bushdm86]

I know this topic pops up often in DCP. So I feel compelled to give you all my 2 cents, since I have heard over $20 worth from everyone else over the years.

I'm from NJ and remember seeing the Muchachos numerous times since 1973. I saw them at least 4-5 times in 1975 and they were an amazing drum corps. I was stunned when I got to Franklin Field for prelims and found out they were disqualified. I was hoping they had a shot at the title, being a eastern fan (but with great respect for our midwestern and western corps), and because of their CYO score and placement.

- Did they have overage members? Someone I know and respect, who had ties to them, confirmed they did. Shame on their management and staff.

- Where they the only corps in prelims who had overage members? Knowing the time, and drum corps, no, I don't believe they were.

- Where they singled out because they were a top 5 corps or because they were out of favor with DCI? I believe that is possible, but have no proof.

What I do believe is their punishment was too severe and eventually destroyed a great corps. In my opinion they should have allowed their score to be announced and then give them a penalty (.5 or 1 pt for each overage member caught). If they still qualified for finals after all of the penalty points, then allow them to perform without those members. If they choose not to perform, then push up the number 13 corps. So, if they came in 3rd, but after penalty points came in 9th, that would send the proper message to everyone.

By not announcing their prelim score we are where we are today as we were in August 1975. This just keeps growing and growing. Lost in the pro and con of the debate are the legitimate members of the Muchachos who saw their season lost. I cannot imagine how they felt.

Muchacho administration and staff, who knew of overage members, should have been discliplined by DCI. By the way DCI handled it, especially after the 1974 prelim reporting time incident, left much to be desired. What possible good could the idea of destroying scores do in the long run but create speculation as we still have today?

[Fran Haring]

I know this topic pops up often in DCP. So I feel compelled to give you all my 2 cents, since I have heard over $20 worth from everyone else over the years.

I'm from NJ and remember seeing the Muchachos numerous times since 1973. I saw them at least 4-5 times in 1975 and they were an amazing drum corps. I was stunned when I got to Franklin Field for prelims and found out they were disqualified. I was hoping they had a shot at the title, being a eastern fan (but with great respect for our midwestern and western corps), and because of their CYO score and placement.

- Did they have overage members? Someone I know and respect, who had ties to them, confirmed they did. Shame on their management and staff.

- Where they the only corps in prelims who had overage members? Knowing the time, and drum corps, no, I don't believe they were.

- Where they singled out because they were a top 5 corps or because they were out of favor with DCI? I believe that is possible, but have no proof.

What I do believe is their punishment was too severe and eventually destroyed a great corps. In my opinion they should have allowed their score to be announced and then give them a penalty (.5 or 1 pt for each overage member caught). If they still qualified for finals after all of the penalty points, then allow them to perform without those members. If they choose not to perform, then push up the number 13 corps. So, if they came in 3rd, but after penalty points came in 9th, that would send the proper message to everyone.

By not announcing their prelim score we are where we are today as we were in August 1975. This just keeps growing and growing. Lost in the pro and con of the debate are the legitimate members of the Muchachos who saw their season lost. I cannot imagine how they felt.

Muchacho administration and staff, who knew of overage members, should have been discliplined by DCI. By the way DCI handled it, especially after the 1974 prelim reporting time incident, left much to be desired. What possible good could the idea of destroying scores do in the long run but create speculation as we still have today?

Well-said, John. Best post I've read in this thread.

Fran

[Bob984]

I'd take "Mr. Ed" or "My Favorite Martian" any day ... You're invoking the classics there.

I'm old, because for me, "Mr Ed" and "My Favorite Martian" still rock.........

GB

[BariBrian]

I know this topic pops up often in DCP. So I feel compelled to give you all my 2 cents, since I have heard over $20 worth from everyone else over the years.

I'm from NJ and remember seeing the Muchachos numerous times since 1973. I saw them at least 4-5 times in 1975 and they were an amazing drum corps. I was stunned when I got to Franklin Field for prelims and found out they were disqualified. I was hoping they had a shot at the title, being a eastern fan (but with great respect for our midwestern and western corps), and because of their CYO score and placement.

- Did they have overage members? Someone I know and respect, who had ties to them, confirmed they did. Shame on their management and staff.

- Where they the only corps in prelims who had overage members? Knowing the time, and drum corps, no, I don't believe they were.

- Where they singled out because they were a top 5 corps or because they were out of favor with DCI? I believe that is possible, but have no proof.

What I do believe is their punishment was too severe and eventually destroyed a great corps. In my opinion they should have allowed their score to be announced and then give them a penalty (.5 or 1 pt for each overage member caught). If they still qualified for finals after all of the penalty points, then allow them to perform without those members. If they choose not to perform, then push up the number 13 corps. So, if they came in 3rd, but after penalty points came in 9th, that would send the proper message to everyone.

By not announcing their prelim score we are where we are today as we were in August 1975. This just keeps growing and growing. Lost in the pro and con of the debate are the legitimate members of the Muchachos who saw their season lost. I cannot imagine how they felt.

Muchacho administration and staff, who knew of overage members, should have been discliplined by DCI. By the way DCI handled it, especially after the 1974 prelim reporting time incident, left much to be desired. What possible good could the idea of destroying scores do in the long run but create speculation as we still have today?

BRAVO!!!!!!! This is excellent! Disqualifing a whole corps full of innocent kids, because of a rule infraction was completely out of line. Penelties should have been made, for certain.

I can not speak for every corps from 75, but I KNOW there were MANY more marching over age. What a shame, and such terrible long term effects for that FINE , FINE drum corp.

[Bob984]

I know this topic pops up often in DCP. So I feel compelled to give you all my 2 cents, since I have heard over $20 worth from everyone else over the years.

I'm from NJ and remember seeing the Muchachos numerous times since 1973. I saw them at least 4-5 times in 1975 and they were an amazing drum corps. I was stunned when I got to Franklin Field for prelims and found out they were disqualified. I was hoping they had a shot at the title, being a eastern fan (but with great respect for our midwestern and western corps), and because of their CYO score and placement.

- Did they have overage members? Someone I know and respect, who had ties to them, confirmed they did. Shame on their management and staff.

- Where they the only corps in prelims who had overage members? Knowing the time, and drum corps, no, I don't believe they were.

- Where they singled out because they were a top 5 corps or because they were out of favor with DCI? I believe that is possible, but have no proof.

What I do believe is their punishment was too severe and eventually destroyed a great corps. In my opinion they should have allowed their score to be announced and then give them a penalty (.5 or 1 pt for each overage member caught). If they still qualified for finals after all of the penalty points, then allow them to perform without those members. If they choose not to perform, then push up the number 13 corps. So, if they came in 3rd, but after penalty points came in 9th, that would send the proper message to everyone.

By not announcing their prelim score we are where we are today as we were in August 1975. This just keeps growing and growing. Lost in the pro and con of the debate are the legitimate members of the Muchachos who saw their season lost. I cannot imagine how they felt.

Muchacho administration and staff, who knew of overage members, should have been discliplined by DCI. By the way DCI handled it, especially after the 1974 prelim reporting time incident, left much to be desired. What possible good could the idea of destroying scores do in the long run but create speculation as we still have today?

A few things........

"DCI" didn't single out the Muchachos.....the Cavaliers filed the protest, at prelims, and implicated a specific member of Muchachos that they stated was overage....they were checked immediately after Muchacho's prelim performance, and they were disqualified. The consequence for overage has always been quite clear....disqualification........doing anything short would have really encouraged "rule breaking" even more, and would have been especially unfair to the corps that were 'clean".

I have a few good friends who were in the 75 Muchachos....without going into detail, the corps had a several overage members......and all were aware, including members........

The corps administration and staff were as crushed about the DQ as the members.....what would even additional punishment to anyone in the organization accomplish?? Was it wrong? Yes. Were other corps overage?? Yes. It still didn't make it right. However, singling out Muchachos administration and staff for punishment would have even made things worse for the corps, when staffs/administrations of other corps who did "not get caught" were also guilty.

The consecutive DQ's of 3 eastern corps....Muchachos, Crossmen, and Bridgemen, did eventually lead to forcing corps to fully document all corps members, getting birth certificates, and forced DCI to start scrutinizing ALL corps on age.

I believe that disqualifying the Muchachos and not giving them a score/placement may have allowed DCI to have 12 other corps according to the rules. I am not certain that if they were announced as having a qualifying score, and then disqualified, then the DQ would have been considered as "after" prelims, and there would have only been 11 corps in finals. I'm not 100% certain about this, but it's a possibility.

Also, let's say they won or came in 2nd at prelims with their score, even though disqualified. There still would have been speculation....."hey, if they were in finals, they may have won" I know that if I had been in Pesceone's shoes, I probably would have done the same thing. It's been 35 years, so unless somebody can round up all the judges and get a concrete number from each of them, I don't think we are ever going to know.

GB

[DCIHasBeen]

I know this topic pops up often in DCP. So I feel compelled to give you all my 2 cents, since I have heard over $20 worth from everyone else over the years.

I'm from NJ and remember seeing the Muchachos numerous times since 1973. I saw them at least 4-5 times in 1975 and they were an amazing drum corps. I was stunned when I got to Franklin Field for prelims and found out they were disqualified. I was hoping they had a shot at the title, being a eastern fan (but with great respect for our midwestern and western corps), and because of their CYO score and placement.

- Did they have overage members? Someone I know and respect, who had ties to them, confirmed they did. Shame on their management and staff.

- Where they the only corps in prelims who had overage members? Knowing the time, and drum corps, no, I don't believe they were.

- Where they singled out because they were a top 5 corps or because they were out of favor with DCI? I believe that is possible, but have no proof.

What I do believe is their punishment was too severe and eventually destroyed a great corps. In my opinion they should have allowed their score to be announced and then give them a penalty (.5 or 1 pt for each overage member caught). If they still qualified for finals after all of the penalty points, then allow them to perform without those members. If they choose not to perform, then push up the number 13 corps. So, if they came in 3rd, but after penalty points came in 9th, that would send the proper message to everyone.

By not announcing their prelim score we are where we are today as we were in August 1975. This just keeps growing and growing. Lost in the pro and con of the debate are the legitimate members of the Muchachos who saw their season lost. I cannot imagine how they felt.

Muchacho administration and staff, who knew of overage members, should have been discliplined by DCI. By the way DCI handled it, especially after the 1974 prelim reporting time incident, left much to be desired. What possible good could the idea of destroying scores do in the long run but create speculation as we still have today?

They were singled out because the Cavaliers director, Don Warren, decided he was going to take it upon himself to clean up the activity, for the sake of God and Country, and went after the particular individual in the Muchachos because he had gotten a tip off on some information by someone who knew the guy.

Of course Warren would NEVER have done something like that simply to try and gain a competitive edge. That would be out of the question. </sarcasm>

I agree with you, the penalty was too stiff, and always have been too stiff. I've been there and been burned by that in 1977.

Essentially disqualifying the corps for overage is punishing the kids because their adult leadership are unscrupulous, irresponsible, a-holes. In any overage action taken to date, the action was a direct result of a corps' leadership willfully violating, or taking it upon themselves to independently make an interpretation of the rules that ran contrary to the intent of the majority ... Yet the kids got punished.

Ban the Director for life, make them stipulate to paying PERSONAL fines (that don't come out of corps budgets), but don't #### the kids over because the adults are morally bereft or ethically bankrupt.

The corps directors who have prosecuted these offenses for purely competitive gains are equally worthy of contempt.

For those of you who have never experienced a disqualification first hand, from the field, with the kids and support staff of the corps affected by it, let me tell you it is not something that you ever want to see happen. It is a disaster whose impact is immediate, devastating, and brings with it both short and long-term physical and psychological damage the likes of which you couldn't possibly understand unless you were there.

To the pundits that keep dragging this #### up: It is not a matter that should be fodder for speculation, conjecture, or debate, or in the sickest instances, black humor, and will never be to those of us who have lived it. Try to keep that in mind when you're dragging up some of the ugliest moments of young adulthood for those of us who have been there while you are looking for chit-chat to pass your off-season boredom.

Edited January 20, 2010 by DCIHasBeen

[Jeff Ream]

I thought DW was working on 73 shows after the release of DCI 72? Is this not in the works anymore?

they are

[Jeff Ream]

Can't you knowledge seekers use the "search" function or google the info without having to rip open old wounds every six months or so? Everything about this that could be discussed, has been discussed ... ad nauseum. Re-hashing it is a waste of everyone's time.

no one held a gun to your head to force you to participate

[Jeff Ream]

They were singled out because the Cavaliers director, Don Warren, decided he was going to take it upon himself to clean up the activity, for the sake of God and Country, and went after the particular individual in the Muchachos because he had gotten a tip off on some information by someone who knew the guy.

Of course Warren would NEVER have done something like that simply to try and gain a competitive edge. That would be out of the question. </sarcasm>

I agree with you, the penalty was too stiff, and always have been too stiff. I've been there and been burned by that in 1977.

Essentially disqualifying the corps for overage is punishing the kids because their adult leadership are unscrupulous, irresponsible, a-holes. In any overage action taken to date, the action was a direct result of a corps' leadership willfully violating, or taking it upon themselves to independently make an interpretation of the rules that ran contrary to the intent of the majority ... Yet the kids got punished.

Ban the Director for life, make them stipulate to paying PERSONAL fines (that don't come out of corps budgets), but don't #### the kids over because the adults are morally bereft or ethically bankrupt.

The corps directors who have prosecuted these offenses for purely competitive gains are equally worthy of contempt.

For those of you who have never experienced a disqualification first hand, from the field, with the kids and support staff of the corps affected by it, let me tell you it is not something that you ever want to see happen. It is a disaster whose impact is immediate, devastating, and brings with it both short and long-term physical and psychological damage the likes of which you couldn't possibly understand unless you were there.

To the pundits that keep dragging this #### up: It is not a matter that should be fodder for speculation, conjecture, or debate, or in the sickest instances, black humor, and will never be to those of us who have lived it. Try to keep that in mind when you're dragging up some of the ugliest moments of young adulthood for those of us who have been there while you are looking for chit-chat to pass your off-season boredom.

a question....why was SCV able to avoid disqualification in 89?