ajlisko Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Obviously, you never saw any pictures of the 1970s era Kilties. ... or Loretto from the late 50's/early 60's with their wives and kids cheering them on ... LOL ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Obviously, you never saw any pictures of the 1970s era Kilties. Wow, are you right.....we toured with them in 77.......man, they had some guys out there who looked like "dads"........I don't think anybody was going to "start anything" with these guys... we had a ton of respect though, as they could play, and had quite a comeback year.......... GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joesilver Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 A few things........ "DCI" didn't single out the Muchachos.....the Cavaliers filed the protest, at prelims, and implicated a specific member of Muchachos that they stated was overage....they were checked immediately after Muchacho's prelim performance, and they were disqualified. The consequence for overage has always been quite clear....disqualification........doing anything short would have really encouraged "rule breaking" even more, and would have been especially unfair to the corps that were 'clean". It is interesting how the Cavaliers knew about an overage member of the Muchachos. How? One is in Illinois and the other New Jersey. Who was the insider? Could he have been a member of the 1975 Cavalier Tympani line who was from New Jersey? I was just as surprised in 1977 before the Bridgemen were protested at a contest in Michigan City, Indiana. I was with the Blue Stars and our assistant horn guy Don Hill came up to me and said " you had better still be 21 because the Cavaliers have just protested you and Pierre " ( another soprano who did look old with the full beard and both of our birthdays were the same day ) I thought who in the heck knows me out here? Was it that former Cavalier tympani player who was now driving the Cavies equipment truck from time to time? Hmmmm So, we got pulled out of line and pulled out driver licenses and went back into line. By the way, it is ironic that that same Cavalier tympani player rode the Bridgemen's tour bus in 1974! I don't think he marched a show with them but he was learning the show. Hey Jim J. Sorry we never got the chance to chat in person. Maybe this year in Bayonne or Harrisburg. And there is soooo much more to this story. That old saying that truth is stranger than fiction really does apply here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) It is interesting how the Cavaliers knew about an overage member of the Muchachos. How? One is in Illinois and the other New Jersey. Who was the insider? Could he have been a member of the 1975 Cavalier Tympani line who was from New Jersey? There was a member in Cavaliers who had marched with the Muchachos member who was flagged, and knew that he was overage. Mystery solved. While I have some sympathy for the Muchachos members, I'm also old enough to know that it's highly unlikely that none of them were aware that they had overage members in the corps. Yes, everyone back in the day used to flaunt the rule, but everyone also knew that it was a violation and could have consequences. Don Warren took DCI, the organization he helped found, more seriously than some others did. But from an historical standpoint, the move has worked, since overage violations are nothing that ANY corps director has screwed around with since then (The Bridgemen's case was much more a case in miscommunication, imho, and the SCV case a situation of first-class fraud on the part of the two members). Edited February 7, 2010 by mobrien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphaba01 Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 ... or Loretto from the late 50's/early 60's with their wives and kids cheering them on ... LOL ... "East Coast Protests": "Way Back When", in 1960's junior drum corps, very famous "Husband & Wife" corps directors team was known to keep a "Record" of persons they thought/accused to be "Over Age" (Just TRY doing that today BTW), and "Carded" people just prior to shows. This famously backfired one time when they "Protested" a member of a "Parish" unit who turned out NOT to be "Aged", while several other marching members of that same junior corps WERE "Slightly Overage" (And "Married with children" ) and also members of a senior DCA corps. Protest used, "Sorry about that". Ah, the "Good Olde Days" of "Circuit" competition..... Elphaba WWW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHall Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Here's a thought......was this one person who was overage the reason why the Muchachos were so good? I doubt it. Same with all those other corps that had overage members...did they make a difference on how well the corps did? I don't believe so. I know it's decades ago BUT...shouldn't DCI pulled the kid out, penalized the corps X amount of points? Let's say they score an 88 and receive a 10 point penalty for overage member...would a 78 still get them into finals? I didn't check scores for that year before I wrote this but I seem to remember 90's weren't reached yet at DCI although I will check after I send this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHall Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 So here are the scores and I was close. Muchachos were right behind Madison and probably would have been up there by prelims. With all the secrecy of the sheets being hidden, I would guess that they would have beaten Scouts by then and Pesceone felt that if word got out that 'chachos were in 1st place there would have been a riot or something. At CYO Nationals Hawthorne were almost 2 points ahead of Vanguard and over a point ahead of Blue Devils. That was 3 days before DCI Prelims and Scouts were in front by 1.5 or so. Lets say they score an 89.6 and took a 10 point penalty, they would have tied Troopers. Then allowed to compete without the overage member the corps would have sky rocketed up to top 3. DCI Prelims 1975 1 Madison Scouts 89.550 2 Santa Clara Vanguard 88.750 3 Blue Devils 87.150 4 Oakland Crusaders 86.200 5 27th Lancers 85.850 6 Blue Stars 85.100 7 Royal Crusaders 84.850 8 Kilties 83.050 9 Garfield Cadets 82.350 10 Phantom Regiment 81.950 11 Cavaliers 81.400 12 Troopers 79.600 13 Squires 79.000 14 Precisionnaires 78.650 15 Black Knights 77.850 Here's a thought......was this one person who was overage the reason why the Muchachos were so good? I doubt it. Same with all those other corps that had overage members...did they make a difference on how well the corps did? I don't believe so. I know it's decades ago BUT...shouldn't DCI pulled the kid out, penalized the corps X amount of points? Let's say they score an 88 and receive a 10 point penalty for overage member...would a 78 still get them into finals? I didn't check scores for that year before I wrote this but I seem to remember 90's weren't reached yet at DCI although I will check after I send this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumno5 Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) ......was this one person who was overage the reason why the Muchachos were so good? One guy got flagged - but I've always been under the impression that they had more than one (and maybe more than a few) overage members. Anyone got any info, one way or the other? Fred O. Edited February 7, 2010 by drumno5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyfromhowardst Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 One guy got flagged - but I've always been under the impression that they had more than one (and maybe more than a few) overage members. Anyone got any info, one way or the other?Fred O. Ok, here's what I got. I marched Kilties in '75 and some things are hazy but I will report on the events that I remember. First time we saw Muchachos we rolled up on their drum line at a show out east. Can't remember where the show was but it was about 2nd week of August, a few big corps at a small stadium. I remember meeting Purple Lancer girls. Anyway Muchachos drum line was pure smoke back then and we knew there's was going to be a bigger fight for top drums. That night they go on about 3rd or 4th to last so there's some time before finale. After they get off, we chat with a couple of Muchachos and a couple of civilians walk by--one of the uniformed Muchachos we're talking to yells to them questioning their clothing and asks "why weren't they in uniform" and started to laugh. The civilians stared back with a "shut up you idiot" look on their faces. We thought this odd but just raised an eye brow and said nothing. As savvy Midwestern corn slickers we know on average that there's bound to be 1 or 2 over age fibbers in every corp but have the documents to prove they're under 22. CW back then was you didn't narc. So finale rolls around and the Muchachos sidle up on the field with so many holes in their ranks it was like grandma's teeth. Noticeable like a black eye. We chuckled in bewilderment at this and then noticed a large contingent of of plain clothes people behind them in the stands. What it looked like was a bunch (some say over 2 dozen) of Muchachos had marched and got out of uniform right after they performed. Like they didn't want to be identified with the corps. Drum line looked tiny like a parade corps. Then we wondered who just beat us. Fishy. Well shoot. What the dinkle do you say to that? Well, much was said and discussed over the next week and a half--lots of talk and finger pointing. We heard some grumbling from the Cavies and other corps before DCI Philly but didn't think much about it. Then wham, Muchachos get cold-cocked by Don Warren. We were freaked. A little relieved, but truly weirded out but such an aggressive move. And all of our original thoughts came to bear at once and we realized that this was no surprise. I won't say we knew it was coming, but it was no surprise at all due to all the inter-corps yakking. Just shock. Worse was that at the time, the Cavaliers were NOT very popular and this just further reduced them to boogers. Really not fair to most of the Cavalier members who worked hard and knew nothing then suddenly became ugly targets. Certainly not fair to the Hawthorne kids either, just awful, really. Bad mess. Anyway, this is what I remember--left out the hazy parts like what ever happened to those hot Purple Lancer gals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 So here are the scores and I was close. Muchachos were right behind Madison and probably would have been up there by prelims. With all the secrecy of the sheets being hidden, I would guess that they would have beaten Scouts by then and Pesceone felt that if word got out that 'chachos were in 1st place there would have been a riot or something. At CYO Nationals Hawthorne were almost 2 points ahead of Vanguard and over a point ahead of Blue Devils. That was 3 days before DCI Prelims and Scouts were in front by 1.5 or so. Lets say they score an 89.6 and took a 10 point penalty, they would have tied Troopers. Then allowed to compete without the overage member the corps would have sky rocketed up to top 3.DCI Prelims 1975 1 Madison Scouts 89.550 2 Santa Clara Vanguard 88.750 3 Blue Devils 87.150 4 Oakland Crusaders 86.200 5 27th Lancers 85.850 6 Blue Stars 85.100 7 Royal Crusaders 84.850 8 Kilties 83.050 9 Garfield Cadets 82.350 10 Phantom Regiment 81.950 11 Cavaliers 81.400 12 Troopers 79.600 13 Squires 79.000 14 Precisionnaires 78.650 15 Black Knights 77.850 so uh...why bother having rules if you just keep making exceptions> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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