Rule Proposal 2008-02

[corpsreps]

My son benefits from this rule change as he misses the current cutoff by a week, so this is a good thing for him. But I do have some questions:

If this passes in January, when would it go into effect? Would someone with a May birthday who aged out this past summer now be able to march this year? That would seem disruptive to the audition process for some vets to suddenly be eligible after 2-3 camps.

Is it really true that less than 50% of college students don't finish in at least 5 years? I find that hard to believe.

Is the idea that the typical path to drum corps from college is because the proposer is director of a top corps that rarely takes high school kids (so he doesn't see all the high schoolers) or is that really how most kids come to corps? Is it because so many smaller corps are gone so high school students are competing for the same spots against college students?

Is the rook-out phenomenon because kids can only afford to march one year at the top levels or because they just don't know about drum corps as the proposal implies?

[AlexL]

I think this would take effect for the 2009 season, so it wouldnt affect thsi year's audition process.

As for college students, i would say that it is true that a large number of students do not currently finish in four years. I am one of those, finishing in 4.5 years. I have many friends that finished in four last may, but just as many if not more that are finishing up this semester or next. I had one more summer I couldve marched, but was aged out. Luckily i found the opportunity to take on an internship and stay involved in the activity that way, but many others dont, and would love to be doing something corps-related with their last summer off.

I know that I didnt know about drum corps until i was almost done with high school, and didnt march until after my sophomore year of college. I dont know how true that is over the whole population, but it at least makes sense to me.

[drumcat]

I think this would take effect for the 2009 season, so it wouldnt affect thsi year's audition process.

As for college students, i would say that it is true that a large number of students do not currently finish in four years. I am one of those, finishing in 4.5 years. I have many friends that finished in four last may, but just as many if not more that are finishing up this semester or next. I had one more summer I couldve marched, but was aged out. Luckily i found the opportunity to take on an internship and stay involved in the activity that way, but many others dont, and would love to be doing something corps-related with their last summer off.

I know that I didnt know about drum corps until i was almost done with high school, and didnt march until after my sophomore year of college. I dont know how true that is over the whole population, but it at least makes sense to me.

You could make the argument that if you're not out in 4, you shouldn't be spending your summers on tour...

[SkyRyder_FMM]

You could make the argument that if you're not out in 4, you shouldn't be spending your summers on tour...

While I understand what you are saying, this is not true for all majors/professions. For example, if you are an accountant and woul;d like to sit for your CPA exam, you must have a 5 year degree. Being a CPA is not required to be an accountant, but it does help your future prospects and earnings potential.

[Kyle B]

I see your point drumcat, however it took this moron 6 years to get the degree. I was screwing around the first 2 and wasn't doing work. I marched soph-junior and junior - senior. Whereas some of the classes I didn't do well on were Gen Ed's, some were also in my major, and my school doesn't offer any of those classes during the summer. Plus with my busy work load, I couldn't have fit in any more of the classes that I was redoing over in the regular semester, so I just had to take them other times. Had I been able to march another summer, it wouldn't have added more time to my graduation date.

I know this is only one guy's story, but maybe there are more. What I'd like to see is either this rule pass, or not being able to march at all when your 22. The poster whose birthday is May 31st couldn't march because of one day.

Also, let us not forget that some schools, especially music programs let you do a 5 year masters program, and I've known some of these people that have marched plus some who couldn't in the first few years do to their busy workload.

[drumcat]

OK, well, for the sake of absurdity, let's eliminate the age restriction. Or let's make it 50.

This is like the minimum wage argument. Minimum wage could be $100, but a burger will cost $80. It's all relative.

There is a clear, rational reason for the age restriction being about 21. The reason is that society generally defines this age as the demarcation for "youth". The further you stray into the positive, the more risk you take in alienating all of the financial gifts and grants that organizations receive as a "youth activity".

Yes, it's cool to be able to march. But if we all agree that this is still "junior" drum corps, then why jeopardize it? Frankly, at some point, the age restriction is useless. For example, if it were 25, would this benefit the activity? Of course the players would mature, but you also do two things -- you remove the amateur element, and you remove the youth element.

You can't discount that this activity is made up of a bunch of non-profit youth organizations. If they are no longer youth organizations, you run the risk of losing funding for corps. And if you change, a corps can't stay a youth org because they'd be slaughtered competitively.

Average age is already a huge antagonist of competitive parity. Why make the problem worse?

If you wanted to make a useful rule, you could do something more creative, such as anyone who ages out in world may have a year in open the year after. A pseudo-staff-marcher, or "player-manager". Or you could even make a solid argument to repeal the bonus year rule based on average age and how it adversely affects non-finalists. That's not what this is about; this is a rule that is based around the idea of protecting a few corps in the upper-echelons by giving them an even bigger average-age advantage.

I would suggest that if you could ever get a hold of average-age and placement, you'll see for yourself the direct corollary.

[SkyRyder_FMM]

OK, well, for the sake of absurdity, let's eliminate the age restriction. Or let's make it 50.

This is like the minimum wage argument. Minimum wage could be $100, but a burger will cost $80. It's all relative.

There is a clear, rational reason for the age restriction being about 21. The reason is that society generally defines this age as the demarcation for "youth". The further you stray into the positive, the more risk you take in alienating all of the financial gifts and grants that organizations receive as a "youth activity".

Yes, it's cool to be able to march. But if we all agree that this is still "junior" drum corps, then why jeopardize it? Frankly, at some point, the age restriction is useless. For example, if it were 25, would this benefit the activity? Of course the players would mature, but you also do two things -- you remove the amateur element, and you remove the youth element.

You can't discount that this activity is made up of a bunch of non-profit youth organizations. If they are no longer youth organizations, you run the risk of losing funding for corps. And if you change, a corps can't stay a youth org because they'd be slaughtered competitively.

Average age is already a huge antagonist of competitive parity. Why make the problem worse?

If you wanted to make a useful rule, you could do something more creative, such as anyone who ages out in world may have a year in open the year after. A pseudo-staff-marcher, or "player-manager". Or you could even make a solid argument to repeal the bonus year rule based on average age and how it adversely affects non-finalists. That's not what this is about; this is a rule that is based around the idea of protecting a few corps in the upper-echelons by giving them an even bigger average-age advantage.

I would suggest that if you could ever get a hold of average-age and placement, you'll see for yourself the direct corollary.

Very excellent points.

[Hrothgar15]

Very excellent points.

[AlexL]

You could make the argument that if you're not out in 4, you shouldn't be spending your summers on tour...

Lots of things can push your degree back. changing majors, having a major that just takes a long time, or double majoring etc. Being on tour 3 summers didnt push mine back at all (being a double major just took some time) . Most of my upper level classes werent offered in the summer anyways, so it was a choice between corps or work.

[zackiedude]

Another question: what about those who graduate in 3.5? I specifically DIDN'T graduate in 3.5 because I would be putzing around for 5 months, go on tour then have to find a job. Adding another year may make this a problem for more people as well.

And yes, some argue that music ed majors almost always take at least 4.5 years... but should this activity be all about the music ed majors?