Plagerization of Drum Corps

[JKatzmellophone]

Jim, I know. Those songs listed have been done by so many corps in the past, it's ridiculous to assert that any one corps owns the definitive performance of any song. It may be YOUR personal favorite and that's cool, but to accuse another corps of copying because you prefer one corps' performance over anothers' seems silly to me.

There was a small corps from NY, (Grenadiers?), that played, "Cappricio Espagnol" in the early or mid 1970s. It was awesome, too bad SCV had to copy them in 1982 or Cadets copying Sunrisers "Farandol" from the 1970s, and on and on.

Corps reps is really cool and invaluable, but there's a lot missing.

Its not likely that Cadets or SCV or any DCI corps for that matter "copied" anyone in DCA. They never paid much attention to what DCA was doing. It was merely coincidence that they picked a tune a DCA corps had played. UNLESS those corps shared the same arranger. (I.E Kirschner) 1982 He arranged La Virgin de la Macarena for both Cabs amd Sky Ryders. Infact it was the same arrangement. Both corps used in in 82 and 83 and Sky Ryders continued to use it in 1984.

[JimF-LowBari]

Jim, I know. Those songs listed have been done by so many corps in the past, it's ridiculous to assert that any one corps owns the definitive performance of any song. It may be YOUR personal favorite and that's cool, but to accuse another corps of copying because you prefer one corps' performance over anothers' seems silly to me.

There was a small corps from NY, (Grenadiers?), that played, "Cappricio Espagnol" in the early or mid 1970s. It was awesome, too bad SCV had to copy them in 1982 or Cadets copying Sunrisers "Farandol" from the 1970s, and on and on.

Corps reps is really cool and invaluable, but there's a lot missing.

That's the problem with us... mmm.... more "mature" guys. We remember shows from corps that never made the big time or don't exist anymore.

Note to self: Send corpsreps list of reps I have but they don't.... Can think of a few mid 70s Seniors... Think Hershey Chocolatiers performed "Star Wars" before Madison came out on the field with it. Does that mean the Chocolatiers "own" Star Wars....

[Martybucs]

That's the problem with us... mmm.... more "mature" guys. We remember shows from corps that never made the big time or don't exist anymore.

Note to self: Send corpsreps list of reps I have but they don't.... Can think of a few mid 70s Seniors... Think Hershey Chocolatiers performed "Star Wars" before Madison came out on the field with it. Does that mean the Chocolatiers "own" Star Wars....

Since Heshey Chocolate is pulling out of Hershey, PA and moving to Mexico, maybe the Chocolatiers could reform as a Mariachi style drum corps.

[Dennis Argul]

I guess the moment caveman number two smacked a log with a stick or blew a note on a ram's horn he plagerized the first one to do it.

As long as he did it better, moved while playing it and had some serious GE, nobody remembers the first guy!

Edited December 26, 2007 by Dennis Argul

[ech2os]

Hmm........even though this is a great topic, it isn't a great typing topic since it can get so complicated. I would say in an effort to keep it simple........the folks with Reading HAD to know they were going to hear the SVC New Era / Blue Era comparisons when they pulled the trigger on it. They were hearing SVC comparisons before they pulled the trigger. Throw in Mr. Ruocco's service to SVC and Reading and its extremely reasonable to question the creative process and/or the intentions of the staff in putting that production on the field no matter how great.

My visceral reaction to this revolves around the concept of "musical community property". Malaguena, West Side Story, Childern of Sanchez, etc etc.....but when you take something that was so popular, so recent, and relatively speaking under to never performed (in drum corps) and perform it, you invite comparisons that might not be favorable depending on the mind set and experience of the viewer.

Mr. Argul makes a point that is one of many that make this a discussion more easily had in person than on a message board............that being that if Reading had blown my socks completely off with Blue Era, I would have forgotten all about New Era.

This is not an attack on Bush, but had I seen them perform Rocky Point Holiday in 1983 and then Garfield afterwards, I would have forgotten all about the Bush performance and Rocky Point would be all Garfield's in my eyes as it is today.

Like in most other debates, disagreements, etc.............exepctations or intentions need to be understood before you can understand why somebody does what they do or thinks like they do. Forget DCI for a moment........since my first recollection of the Buccaneers was the late 70s early 80s, I find it difficult to embrace the latest version of the Balance in Blue because frankly, it isn't as original (to me) as the great George Parks lead corps of those years. Generally speaking, if somebody else had seriously split the field throwing a Mace who knows how far in the air, did a somersault, and caught it right before a hugh push forward.......they would have been compared to Parks and wouldn't have gotten the response he did.

[Martybucs]

Comparisons are OK. They lead to interesting discussions.

You can like one corps more than another, that's OK too.

You can even accuse one corps of ripping off another corps because they are playing the same music or even exact chart.

I am one that happens to NOT believe that one corps would copy another corps, even if they are playing the same chart. To me, that accusation is childish.

I play in a jazz band. We play concerts and dinner dances. Lot's of bands play the same exact charts as other bands. Are we copying eachother? No, we are trying to entertain the paying public and entertain them by playing what they want to hear. What they expect to hear. Did the original artists play the songs better than we do? Most certainly, but people like us and have a good time.

Sometimes, someone will come up during a break and tell us how they heard Goodman, Kenton, Monk, Ellington or someone else playing live at Birdland or somewhere and that we brought back wonderful memories for them.

The "copying and rip off" accusations are silly, petty, and childish, IMO.

Make your comparisons, that's cool. Nobody minds. Just be realistic in your observations and conclusions.

[ech2os]

Comparisons are OK. They lead to interesting discussions.

You can like one corps more than another, that's OK too.

You can even accuse one corps of ripping off another corps because they are playing the same music or even exact chart.

I am one that happens to NOT believe that one corps would copy another corps, even if they are playing the same chart. To me, that accusation is childish.

I play in a jazz band. We play concerts and dinner dances. Lot's of bands play the same exact charts as other bands. Are we copying eachother? No, we are trying to entertain the paying public and entertain them by playing what they want to hear. What they expect to hear. Did the original artists play the songs better than we do? Most certainly, but people like us and have a good time.

Sometimes, someone will come up during a break and tell us how they heard Goodman, Kenton, Monk, Ellington or someone else playing live at Birdland or somewhere and that we brought back wonderful memories for them.

The "copying and rip off" accusations are silly, petty, and childish, IMO.

Make your comparisons, that's cool. Nobody minds. Just be realistic in your observations and conclusions.

Agreed. However, I think when you are competing specifically for a "Title" and as the activity in which you are competing has "creatively evolved" itself, it is a risky proposition to redo what another may well be known for or associated with.

[Martybucs]

Agreed. However, I think when you are competing specifically for a "Title" and as the activity in which you are competing has "creatively evolved" itself, it is a risky proposition to redo what another may well be known for or associated with.

Yes, but is it only a copy or a redo if you're good?

If a winning corps or even a top corps does a piece, previously done, it's a copy or redo.

It's like you're saying they won because they did a piece that another winning corps used and that can never be the case, seriously.

If a corps does a piece, previously done by a successful corps, but they don't win or finish near the top, even though it's a faily close performance of the original, then it's no longer a redo or copy?

If a corps does a piece by a DCI corps and wins with it in their program whereas, the DCI corps did not win a championship, then which corps did it better? It's a silly premise to argue.

You can have your opinions. You can make comparisons. You can say perhaps a certain piece is a winning piece because of crowd reaction. You can certainly say your favorite corps did it better. However, your conclusions will never be anything more than your opinion, no matter how many agree with you.

So any rule in this regard would be seeking to control people's opinions. I don't think it can be done. I don't think it's fair to restrict the choices of the corps either, based on someone's opinions about something so subjective as creativity.

[ravedodger]

It's drum corps. What really matters is that faces are torn from skulls on occasion, IMHO.

[SaraNYC]

Jazz keeps getting brought up in this discussion...

As a jazz musician who improvises, when I play a JJ Johnson lick or a Miles Davis lick in a solo I'm not necessarily going to be accused of "stealing someone's stuff" in my solo. Most likely I'm going to get a grunt of appreciation from the knowledgeable listener in the audience that knows the genre well enough to recognize what I just did. Now, I may have one of many motives for playing that lick. I could be doing it to pay homage to a jazz master. I could be doing it as part of my learning process. I could be doing it because I'm stuck and it's one of my rote ii-V patterns that I always fall back on. My teachers are going to nag me about moving on and tell me to start using the lick as a point of departure into my own stuff.

There's a big difference between lifting a drum corps production straight up like my high school band did one year with Spirit's "Let It Be Me" - our band director lifted not only the arrangement, but the drill. If I saw another drum corps do something like that I would be bs and crying plagerization. To sit and complain that the Buccaneers or any other corps are using charts that other drum corps have used in the past is a stretch to me. If they were trying to do the exact same drill AND guard work AND note for note arrangements, I could see where a case could be made. But I haven't seen anything like that in DCA.