DCA is "filling a void" left by DCI's Super Corps Model

[KeithHall]

Here's a question......how many audience members saw US Open prelims for Open Class, A Class/All Girl? Then what was the attendance for Finals? I can remember sitting at the end zone to watch Open finals because concert side was sold out. People came out to watch the A/AG corps and thoroughly enjoyed it.

DCA does that and have been doing that. Now they are reaching to the West, Midwest and South as well as adding in the Northeast. In time DCA will be like that as more and more young and old realize that you don't have to tour, pay thousands of dollars to march and give up your summer to do drum corps. You CAN do corps on weekends and be in a great corps too!

[Donny Drum Corps]

And they should feel proud if they did the work to perform their show.

Thank you for having (and acting on) loyalty and ideals...

You are welcome

[audiodb]

If you see the development of our discussion, and it HAS developed from the original argument and title (which may no longer be perfectly appropriate), we are trying to determine cause and effect and solution.

We differ on "cause".

I say DCI, in its relentless pursuit of a Super Corps Tour, has created an "all or nothing" competitive atmosphere that marginalized many corps from existence....not JUST financially, but also in creating a value proposition that diminishes any other competitive corps or contest opportunity beyond the Super Corps to second class status.

There's some truth in that. I call that phenomenon "elitism".

Of course, before Tom Brace brands me a DCI-basher, I should point out that in all fairness, DCI's predecessor (VFW) had a system in place that was excessively focused on "nationals", showcased the top 12 as if the rest didn't even exist, and offered little remuneration for any other participating corps (if any). DCI did not invent "elitism" - it was a bad habit already in place.

Tom believes this is corps-Darwinism at work and that the "market forces" in the equation dictate the outcome.

I say"market forces" were not created in a vaccuum, but were actually self-created by the voting organizations themselves.

But maybe "market forces"...what paying customers wanted to see and didn't care to see...dictated the voting decisions.

OK, this sounds like the age-old myth about how "the top corps are the draw". Don't get me started....

Anyway, if the event sponsor is willing to set up a format that determines who the top corps are, then presents them all in one evening show with the other corps excluded (i.e. cut in prelims), most fans will prefer that event over a much longer preliminary event, or more dilute regular-season show.

I guess the key for me is that I believe that there is a net positive contribution to be made by having MORE GOOD CORPS.

On that, we certainly agree.

But it's possible that adding 4 or 5 corps to the slate in Allentown doesn't translate to even 1 more ticket sale. Did anyone make their ultimate decision to attend the show based on the inclusion of the Spartans and Raiders? Or were they coming ANYWAY?

Some people come to see the whole show. Some people are there to see "their" corps, and that holds true for the Spartans and/or Raiders. Some people just want to see the top corps....but if the Spartans and Raiders somehow ended up riding on top of world-class this summer, then those people would be seeking them out (and in some cases, even watching them warm up instead of seeing the competitive performances of lower-ranking corps like Blue Devils, Cadets, etc.).

If I added Cascades or Southwind to the contest, their participation certainly ADDS to the logistical, housing, contest, & facility requirements...but MORE CORPS, from a market standpoint, might actually be a "diminishing return."

That's part of the myth. But the draw is not really "the top corps" - it is the league as a whole. For instance, without corps 7 through 24, the "top 6" would also be the "bottom 6". How much of a draw would the 6th-place corps be then? How much of a draw would the World Championship be if there were only six such groups in the "world"? Answer - not much.

All the sports "major leagues" have 20 or more teams. For DCI world-class to be "Marching Music's Major League", they will need the same.

Edited March 11, 2008 by audiodb

[Tom Brace]

It's ALWAYS pilot error when a plane crashes?!?! I know for a FACT that quite a few pane crashes are straight up equipment failure. Nothing to do with the pilot whatsoever. FACT !!!

Failure to follow a pre-flight checklist perhaps?

[Tom Brace]

There's some truth in that. I call that phenomenon "elitism".

Of course, before Tom Brace brands me a DCI-basher, I should point out that in all fairness, DCI's predecessor (VFW) had a system in place that was excessively focused on "nationals", showcased the top 12 as if the rest didn't even exist, and offered little remuneration for any other participating corps (if any). DCI did not invent "elitism" - it was a bad habit already in place.

OK, this sounds like the age-old myth about how "the top corps are the draw". Don't get me started....

this will be enough to make my point.

1. You comments give a good indication of your outlook. I don't need to "brand" you.

2. It's not a myth. I can bring you ample examples to where the corps who are announced to perform at a show dictate to a degree the advanced ticket sales. I was involved for many years with PRs Show of Shows. We wanted Madison, Cavies, and Kilties, because they had enough local fans to push advanced sales. Also, if there was a chance to get a Cadets, SCV or Devils, we'd jump at the chance as these corps would also bring more fans out to the show.

We always saw fewer advanced sales if the second bill (besides PR) wasn't one of these corps. Rockford rarely got to see corps outside the Midwest so, we saw a real bump if the Cadets, SCV, or Devils were on the bill.

[Fran Haring]

Just like it's always pilot error when a plane crashes. Fact.

Not always fact. Ask the folks in Lockerbie, Scotland.

Fran

[Tom Brace]

Not always fact. Ask the folks in Lockerbie, Scotland.

Fran

good point, Fran.

[JayM]

There is also the issue of the size and "wow" factor to consider. If you have a small DCA corps, 35-40 members, for example, going on at the same show as the Cavies, BD, Crown, SCV, etc....what do you think a school band member will experience, esp if they are already in a good sized and quality band?

This. Especially in Texas. At the Dallas and Denton shows this past summer, I was able to see almost all (if not all) of the top 12 DCI corps. DCA being centralized where it is, it's not often (if ever) that we get an upper-tier DCA corps performing at the Texas shows. So this past summer, the only all-age corps exposure any band kids got was that of Frontier. They may mean well, but for whatever reason were overwhelmingly unprepared in all aspects of performance. I don't say that to be mean, and I really don't have anything against them; I'm just stating the facts.

High school kids are impressionable. That will likely be most of those kids' only exposure to senior corps. Seems like kind of a wasted effort, eh?

[Kansan]

This. Especially in Texas. At the Dallas and Denton shows this past summer, I was able to see almost all (if not all) of the top 12 DCI corps. DCA being centralized where it is, it's not often (if ever) that we get an upper-tier DCA corps performing at the Texas shows. So this past summer, the only all-age corps exposure any band kids got was that of Frontier. They may mean well, but for whatever reason were overwhelmingly unprepared in all aspects of performance. I don't say that to be mean, and I really don't have anything against them; I'm just stating the facts.

High school kids are impressionable. That will likely be most of those kids' only exposure to senior corps. Seems like kind of a wasted effort, eh?

I saw a couple recordings of their show. I saw one where the Drums marched with the rest of the Corps and one where the drums were grounded on the sideline. (there is a story behind that) I thought both were good. I really liked the Soprano Soloist.

Wasted effort? No, I don't think so. Frontier Performing Arts has played a big part in putting Drum & Bugle Corps on the Map in the Central part of the U.S. Every time I look at what they are doing, it spurs me on to keep working on Prairie Sound.

They started with nothing but an idea in 2004. (Same time I was putting our idea together) I guess you have to think of it as our Hobby to get what we are doing. I remember seeing Minnesota Brass Back in 1985 and seeing a buch of people that were having fun but was not very impressed with their drill. Now they are one of the Power Houses of DCA. Take a look at the different DCA Corps via the net and you might get a better idea of who is out there, what the rivalries are, the background of the personalities and get a better appreciation of what the Senior/All Age thing is all about. It's not all about perfection to the inth degree but more about performing with like minded individuals and friendly competetion. You will also get to hear some real good Brass and Percussion Players.

Go to Brass Hysteria, sponsored by Frontier and you will see several New Corps like: Scream Machine, Austin Stars, Masquarade, High Country Brass, Cross Winds and Prairie Sound along with some bigger guns like Frontier and Gulf Coast Sound.

You will probably see different slants on Drum Corps. There will be simple and complex drills, G and Bb Brass, traditional in your face Drum Corps Music and maybe some lower key stuff. I know our music will unique and fun. Our drill will probably be on the simple side.

Keep Studying this subject of Senior/All Age Corps, you'll eventually understand why we do it.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Kansan

[JayM]

I have no reason to bag on Frontier. I wasn't holding them to exceptionally high standards, and I in no way expected show design or execution to be anywhere near that of other more experienced groups. Being a drum corps fan since '98, and having marched for three years (aged-out in '05) in a well-traveled DCI corps, I'm relatively aware of what goes on in the all-age circuit. Performing last (or close to it) in most shows doesn't really allow one to see most of the corps perform (in any circuit/division, really) so I won't claim to be an expert, but I have seen videos of the Renegades and Brigadiers and probably a few others.

I hope, in the same way that I hope all corps in the activity can be successful (on their own terms), that Frontier takes off and provides a way for those in the Metroplex to experience all that can be experienced in the all-age drum corps idiom. I say all of this because I hope you understand that I do not have malicious intent, and that I have nothing to gain by being critical of a young corps trying to find its way. However, I do believe that what I had (and have) to say is pretty relevant to the topic at hand.

Due to the nature of the all-age circuit, local Texas corps bear the brunt of the load when it comes to exposing young people in Texas to this alternative means of drum corps participation. The harsh reality is that there are a ton (or least more than you would ever believe unless you live/have lived here) of bands that are beyond (by one order of magnitude, at least) the design and performance capabilities of the one all-age corps those kids will probably ever see in their lifetimes.

All that said, I do not believe I'm being overly critical of the performance I saw. Quite literally, it appeared as if only a few of the members knew their drill sets, and that the rest of the corps were watching those members to figure out where they were supposed to go next. The entire performance reflected on their lack of preparation, and this was in mid-to-late July. In the supposed impact moments, it was painfully obvious that members were just blowing as hard as they could because it's "drum corps". Their saving grace was a lone soprano soloist who could flat-out play. I had the opportunity to see them in performance twice, but I opted out the second time due to my perceived awkwardness of the situation. I hope they are better-prepared this summer.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Jayzer