Cadets

[Legalhack]

Drum & Bugle corps USED to be about kids but has strayed far away from it's roots while in the quest for the "cutting edge". There are many people to blame for leaving the kids behind and it's NOT all the fault of any one person or even a group of people. I would bet that many people that are unhappy about the direction directed it towards Mr. Hopkins because he is so vocal about his vison of drum corps. ( remember, drum corps = marching band )

It was HIS push about the 6 or 8 supercorps and spoke about it openly. It was in an interview in a BD program ( I think it was a program) that he spoke against using weapons. In the big picture, I can "almost" agree with him, but for him to push the point because Rosie would not promote BLAST because of their use of rifles and sabers insults the hell out of me. Considering that Rosie's bodyguards for herself and her kids are armed adds insult to injury. Like the old saying: Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Mr. hopkins has done wonderful things for the Cadets and in turn has helped bring drum corps to new levels most of us would have never dreamed of. But, at the same time, that very same path has left many kids sitting on the side of the road. It's a hard decision to make, do you do whats best for the activity to help grow it and involve more people or do you whats best to bring it to higher levels which adds to the shrinking of the activity ? I had to face that very decision regarding my band program. I made the choice to include and reach more kids. Was it because I was older and wiser ? well, I know I'm older for sure..............

You give George too much credit. The conditions that resulted in the declining number of corps (probably) emerged independent of the Cadets' existence.

George didn't create DCI (and its effect on local circuits) nor did he create the models for competitive success that have prevailed in DCI since the 70s. He didn't create the challenge that "corps style" bands would pose to local corps. George didn't deregulate the airnlines industry (an event that made flying to camps substantially less expensive). He did not create the ethos in which directors concerned themselves with chasing competitive success at the DCI level even if it meant risking the corps' financial viability (or creating an environment in which a sub par competitive outcome resulted in a loss of members in the next year). The product that drum corps presented was still relatively "old school" when the Guardsmen, Kingsmen (on both coasts), Suncoast, 27, North Star, Bayonne and many others were in their death spirals.

[BigSnareline]

Have you not realized that having a discussion with Mike Davis about the Cadets is akin to trying to return a dead parrot to an English pet shop in a Monty Python skit?

OMG... That was absolutely hilarious!!

[LandoC]

You give George too much credit. The conditions that resulted in the declining number of corps (probably) emerged independent of the Cadets' existence.

George didn't create DCI (and its effect on local circuits) nor did he create the models for competitive success that have prevailed in DCI since the 70s. He didn't create the challenge that "corps style" bands would pose to local corps. George didn't deregulate the airnlines industry (an event that made flying to camps substantially less expensive). He did not create the ethos in which directors concerned themselves with chasing competitive success at the DCI level even if it meant risking the corps' financial viability (or creating an environment in which a sub par competitive outcome resulted in a loss of members in the next year). The product that drum corps presented was still relatively "old school" when the Guardsmen, Kingsmen (on both coasts), Suncoast, 27, North Star, Bayonne and many others were in their death spirals.

Well done.

[BigSnareline]

OVER done.

Fixed

[BigSnareline]

Cadets!!???

There's hope for you yet!!

[LandoC]

Fixed

No thanks.

[jordsterr]

This is obviously a heart felt post. I think I undersand where you're coming from, but I feel the need to argue a couple of points.

The first point is about the local or neighborhood drum corps. Yes, there were a lot more corps when the American Legion, VFW and CYO sponsored them. Yes, this started to diminish when DCI started to attract more corps to the DCI championships rather than the other nationals. But it was in large part those organizations themselves that led to this. They weren't paying well and rules were arbitrary and often in conflict between associations. The corps wanted to be able to control their own destinies to some extent If only the CYO, American Legion and VFW had been willing to compromise, DCI might never have been necessary. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that those organizations would have stopped their sponsorships anyway as kids' interests and opportunities have changed significantly over the last 40 years.

I agree that there needs to be that activity for kids who need something and choose an activity that gives them a musical outlet. By and large, that is the band, orchestra choir program in schools across the country. I know that there are some places where music is in trouble, but I can't imagine that the fact that local citizens won't support a tax levy to support school programs would be a community where a drum corps would be supported either.

<<Drum & Bugle corps USED to be about kids but has strayed far away from it's roots while in the quest for the "cutting edge". There are many people to blame for leaving the kids behind and it's NOT all the fault of any one person or even a group of people. I would bet that many people that are unhappy about the direction directed it towards Mr. Hopkins because he is so vocal about his vison of drum corps. ( remember, drum corps = marching band ) >>

Whether anyone wishes to agree or not, George is absolutely correct. In the eyes of almost everyone who knows little about this activity, "marching band" is exactly what they see. Whether or not you agree, that has nothing to do with "the kids." Either the activity is for the members or it's not. If they were to all bang on trash can lids and play kazoos, it's either for the kids or not. What does that mean? Are they providing quality instructions? Is the travle safe? Is the food plentiful and nutritious? Would I send MY KIDS on the road with them? Sadly, I can point to a great number of corps that people ofetn refer to as traditional and "for the kids" that I would never send any kid to. My sister marched for a time in one such. I had the great misfortune to teach one myself, and I'm still appalled at what the management of that corps did to the kids (and the staff for that matter!!)

<<It was HIS push about the 6 or 8 supercorps and spoke about it openly. >>

OK, so we want more corps. True. But when there were 400 corps in this country, were they doing the national tour? No. They did local contests and parades with MAYBE a trip to a national event. That sounds familiar to me. That's high school band. So, if we want more corps, how can we do that? Were not most of the corps instructors in that era volunteering perhaps as a service to the church or community? What's to stop you (or me for that matter...I'm a band director too) from volunteering to create a local drum corps. I'll bet there are churches around (or local band rooms?) where kids could come with their band instruments to get instruction . Does that mean that they need to be the Cavaliers? No. How many of those 400 were the Cavaliers? How many were local parade corps?

<<Mr. hopkins has done wonderful things for the Cadets and in turn has helped bring drum corps to new levels most of us would have never dreamed of. But, at the same time, that very same path has left many kids sitting on the side of the road. It's a hard decision to make, do you do whats best for the activity to help grow it and involve more people or do you whats best to bring it to higher levels which adds to the shrinking of the activity ? I had to face that very decision regarding my band program. I made the choice to include and reach more kids. Was it because I was older and wiser ? well, I know I'm older for sure..............>>

There's a dichotomy here. George created a great experience for the kids he was able to reach. But the rules stated that he could only have 128. He led the push to increase to 135. Then to 150. Was this a push to create fewer corps or to give more kids the opportunity to be with those corps that give a great experience? Again, those corps will be the ones that teach, feed them and transport them in such a way that I can feel good about. Gone should be the days when kids are eating popcorn for dinner and cereal with water.

So let's talk about the kids who come to the Cadets and why they have to turn them away. In your program, you say that you created more room for more kids. Mine too. Here's the difference. I can and do take evryone who wants to come. The drum corps rules only allow 150. But don't blame George for that. The Cadets turn kids away because they are only allowed 150. If DCI would allow no limit, I would be interested to see how many kids the Cadets take. I would not be surprised if it were a great number indeed.

So where do the kids who are not accepted go? There are many division 2 and 3 corps out there who would love to have them. Those opportunities are there. How many div. 3 corps could be filled with the cuts from the Cadets, Cavaliers, Phantom, etc.? So it's not the desire to improve one's self. It's the desire to be at the top without doing what's necessary to get there. That's not a drum corps problem. That's an America problem. I'm not a "blame America firster," but that particular issue in ournational psyche is real.

<<Drum corps to me was supposed to be about the KIDS and FOR the kids. Somewhere, somehow, that seems to be forgotten. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was never supposed to be that way but thats not what my heart tells me.>>

<<Those "kids" are better athletes than most sports programs.

Those "kids' are for the most part, better educated musically than most of the band directors I know of including myself.

Those "kids" are paying as much to march drum corps as many kids pay for private school education.>>

These two points of your are in contrast. Back when the corps were about keeping kids off the streets, they needed the instruction. They were often coming in as novices. They were not the well educated athletes that they often are today. Can we create those opportunities for kids today? Yes!! Do they need a million dollar budget, state of the art equipment and a national tour? No!!

You answer your own point. This is NOT the same activity. Can we have your old activity? IS it necessary? Yes. But realize that what we call drum corps today, while being a significant and often life changing activity, is not what our grandparents did.

<<This is no longer the day and age where you marched in a corps because it was the only corps in your home town. these young adults make some pretty serious decisions about who they want to audition for and who they end up marching with. These "kids" are the cream of the crop. These " kids" will be successful no matter what they do, they are not the ones who NEED our applause ( please don't misunderstand me, I DO applaude them no matter who they march with )

What about the real kids who NEED drum corps to help make them productive citizens ? What about the fat kids, the slow kids, the kids who are not perfect, the kids who can't march at 178 ?. The kids like me? what about them ? What about the kids that don't have the relatives to help pay tour fees ? what about the kids who can't afford to take a whole summer away from work ?>>

True. Again, different kids with different needs. So, let's some of us start some corps that develop those basic skills for the local kids.

<<But as long as they keep us bickering amongst ourselves about things like narration, they think we will not notice whats happening right in front of our eyes. Look at how many kids have been excluded over the past 15 years as opposed to have many could have been INcluded.>>

Why are they being excluded? Is it money? (often a real issue) Is it the size limit? Is it kids limiting themsleves becasue they will only march in a div 1 corps?

<<It's just that I see so many kids that need so much help, and yet the very activity that gave ME the most help in life is so unreachable to them that it doesn't just make me sad, it p##### me off.>>

Why is it unreachable? You do have a local program that does these things for kids. It's your own band program. Like it or not, you ( and I :} ) are the stewards of the activity that gave us so much. Whether you do all brass or you include woodwinds or you have a majorette line, what is the significant difference between what you and I do for kids and what those guys in the bingo hall of the old church did? They provided a significant musical experience and more importantly a LIFE EXPERIENCE for kids. If it's unreachable because of the money required to join a group that does a national tour, that has always been the case.

If it was desirable by most kids to be in a corps where you can work during the week and tour on the weekend, then Capital Sound would be inundated rather than reforming. There are simply kids for whom it's all or nothing.

I'm not trying to stir up an argument. This is simply how I see it. Whether I like narration or not is immaterial. I believe in what the Cadets (and the Cavaliers, SCV, Madison, etc.) are doing. I got a great experience in the Cadets.

I hope to recreate that experience in some part for the kids with whom I'm blessed to come in contact.

[chaddyt]

Phenomenal post jordsterr

[LAMystreaux]

There's hope for you yet!!

Wow, you really are that thick.

[BigSnareline]

Wow, you really are awesome.

Thanks!

Edited May 28, 2008 by BigSnareline