Score observation...

[Ryan H. Turner]

They then got beaten by Velvet Knights (!) in Wyoming mid-July....

WHHHHHHHHHHAT!?!?!?!?

[GMichael1230]

I see what you're saying, Nikk, but if we're talking about the same corps winning all the time and taking away competetive inertia, it's something that's been around since the 70s.

88 was just a weird year, IMO. They happen.

88 was indeed a competitive year but not the only one. Lets take 1982 as an example. 27th Lancers started out behind Crossmen, Bridgmen, and Cavaliers, only to pass them all by finals, DCI East was a battle betwen Crossmen and Garfield, Garfield went on to third place (from a fifth place prelims spot) and Crossmen wound up in seventh, ahead of the Bridgemen, who lost to Freelancers in prelims. Garfield beat SCV the week before finals, the next meeting SCV was second, Garfield was fifth, Phantom and Scouts both wound up begind Garfield, who once lost to Crossmen, who lost to 27th Lancers, who lost to Cavaliers, who barely made finals based on a terrible prelims performance. Troopers, Knights, and Suncoast Sound wound up beating corps that eventualy made finals, Skyryders took the DCS championships and Knights wound up behind Avant garde the day after barely beating Cavaliers.

phew.........you just dont get anything like that anymore, and for an even wider range of traded victories, check 1983.

Geoffrey

Edited July 25, 2008 by GMichael1230

[CrunchyTenor]

Has is occurred to you that this is not the same activity as it was 10-20 years ago? We have gone from essentially local member based corps to national and international memberships. There is also a concentration of member/staff talent with the top corps. These factors alone make it almost impossible to get into the top 5, which is where a corps needs to be to have a shot at 1st place by finals night. The top corps are placing higher than the others because of this concentration, not a judging factor at all.

It's the up-and-coming staffs with a great program having to fight the battle of "reputation" night after night that makes the current system inherently unfair. If Corps A is being scored higher than Corps H because they have a perceived advantage due to the names on the staff roster, and not because they have the best corps on the field, that's crap.

I'll stipulate that the top groups have the top staff and top talent. But the young guns, with new ideas, that work harder, have no chance at success within the current system.

"Paying your dues" is still alive and well in drum corps, and even when you've done that there's no guarantee that your hard work and perserverance will be rewarded...unless you're already one of the elite.

Good post, Nikk. PM me and let me know where you took the new job. Will it require boots and a big hat?

Garry in Vegas

Edited July 25, 2008 by CrunchyTenor

[CrunchyTenor]

WHHHHHHHHHHAT!?!?!?!?

Cheyenne. Where were you? Oh, yeah...aged out!

Garry in Vegas

[Pinwiz]

This post again begs the question, have we reached another tipping point?

Has DCI's direction finally begun to shoot itself in the butt? This is the 4th thread in a week essentially saying the same thing. Or is it just the parting shots of yet another subsection of formerly rabid loyal (older) fans as they decide the activity has now become incomprehensible to them?

I'd wager its the latter, and bound to happen under DCI's current structure. DCI appears to not be concerned as they regularly part with fans now alienated with the new direction. (Look for electronics changes to drive away even more next year)

It appears the people who control this activity are more concerned with personal financial stability than anything else and are making moves that serve that rather than the activity. Tap into the band market and these folks will get the financial rewards they believe is coming to them. Who cares about current fans and the money they spend when there is a much larger and comparatively richer target base a few steps away in the world of school bands which are of course financed through public funds?

Drum Corps has been the bas tard stepchild of music long enough. Time to get paid!

You know what? We're always at a so-called Tipping Point. I've heard the "drum corps is dying" argument every year since 1993 when I first tapped into the online discussion. You've reached your limit, I haven't. And I'm still waiting for you to provide one example of an unjust placement caused by the current system.

Each individual corps is a business, and they have to make the decisions that they believe is in their best interest.

And if a corps wants to compete for a title, they need to write a title-worthy show. Period.

[jwillis35]

I am not advocating taking design out of the equation. However...this activity is "for the kids" (or so we are told over and over). Therefore, the bulk of scoring should lie with performance. I don't know what the best way to apportion everything would be. My own judging "system" has changed much over the years. Perhaps it is as simple as keeping the scoring system we currently have but making sure that the design is not being over-rewarded in the face of performance issues.

Nikk,

Great post as always. And lots of nice responses as well. I have enjoyed reading this thread. I think the point you make above is the most critical, and to me this is where the judging system needs addressed. We can't NOT judge design for it is a big part of the show, but it's the part done by professionals who are NOT the emphasis of the activity (as many of you have pointed out). So the question is what percentage should performance get vs. design? I say 70/30. Right now I think it's closer to 60/40 or something like that, but the sheets are confusing and therefore judges can look at any number of things in order to give their score.

I would design the sheet this way:

BRASS - PERCUSSION - MARCHING - GUARD

Under brass you would have Perf. (20), Tech.(20), and GE (10)

Percussion would be the same.

Marching would be Perf. (20), Tech. (20), and Coord. (10)

Guard would be Perf. (20), Tech (20), and Coord (10)

Each caption would be divided by two giving you 100 points.

This leaves out things like music ensemble, which to me allows judges to reward their preference for sound and balances. It also leaves out some of the visual and GE items that, while important, do not help us score what the kids are doing on the field. Yet, it does include GE effectiveness in Brass and Percussion, and Coordination issues in marching (to the music) and in guard (to the marching and music). Perf. captions are an indication of how they performed that day, and Tech. captions are indicative of the technique used, the demand, and the overall ability.

8 judges are really needed to make this work.

[84skyrydr]

You know what? We're always at a so-called Tipping Point. I've heard the "drum corps is dying" argument every year since 1993 when I first tapped into the online discussion. You've reached your limit, I haven't. And I'm still waiting for you to provide one example of an unjust placement caused by the current system.

Each individual corps is a business, and they have to make the decisions that they believe is in their best interest.

And if a corps wants to compete for a title, they need to write a title-worthy show. Period.

Writing a title show in anything but a top 5 corps wouldn't matter. You will not get the talent at tryouts like the top 5 so who is going to perform this top notch show? Even in Stars very beginning, they had EVERY top instructor and designer that money could obtain. They had a media blitz for membership and they still took more several years to win. It would take champion level shows for three or more years in a row to get that championship. At the same rate, the top dogs vote themselves 15 more members to take away from the talent pool for the lesser placing corps and your attempt at a championship gets even harder.

[silvertrombone]

Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner! ($2 to Bluecoats for design influence of my response.)

Then wouldn't that be a ?

[jmc5682]

I agree. But on the same token, the scoring adds intrigue. I hope it stays.

Without judging drums corpsw would die. The competition makes the activity more exciting, and without the end result being a possible championship for members what would be the point? Competition makes you, forces you, to want to be better.

All sports such as Figure skating, gymnastics, diving, synchro swimming have a subjective aspect to them, and their are always people that get ###### off because one group or individual wins and not the other. The Eastern Block dominated gymnastics in the 70's and 80's simply because they had better coaches and a better training system etc.. I wanted to see the USA win but OH Well, we were not as good.

I marched in a mid to lower level corps in the 80's (8th place being my best finish) and we loved to beat cavies and VK and a few times come close to phantom. It did go back an forth and without that excitement I do not think the activity would have been as exciting for me personally.

[drumcorpspredictions]

We keep saying that the "Big Three" seem to have a stranglehold on the championship...after all, they account for EVERY SINGLE TITLE between 1992 and today (the lone crashers were two ties....SCV and PR....who tied with one of the Big Three). Let's try to equate that with sports...

Since 1992, 9 different teams have won the World Series (Baseball).

Since 1992, 12 different teams have won the Super Bowl (Football).

Since 1992, 7 different teams have won the NBA Finals (Basketball).

Even in college football, where teams have a better chance of establishing dynasties, we have had 12 different national champions since 1992.

Warning: The following is my opinion only, and has no basis in any fact that I've come across.

The reason why DCI is "dying" (and corps are folding) is not because kids aren't interested (they are), or because kids have more distractions over the summer (they do, but they would still do drum corps). The reason is competitive inertia.

We talk about "ring chasers" who only audition for certain corps...well, they might be more likely to audition for more corps if there was a good chance of them being competitive. The very fact that we can honestly say before a season begins that there is almost NO chance of the Bluecoats or the Crusaders winning a DCI title is a problem.

I realise that certain corps' staffs have more experience and are great at designing the show...but if the performance were judged instead of design, then an off-night for the Blue Devils might mean a Crown or Crusaders or Blue Knights' victory...kind of like used to happen "back in the day."

Edit: I should add that I understand this does not mean the bigger, more experience corps are not going to still do very well at the end of the season. I am mostly talking about the stuff that happens in the regular season.

Excellent Point!! The way to prevent "Ring Chasers" from jumping corps is the same as college football. If you change from one Div I college to another, you loose a year eligibility and you sit out that year. If DCI required the same, you would see a lot less corps jumping.