Future DCA Championships.

[84BDsop]

Just to put some perspective on this "travel" business: (picked a typical West, Northeast, and South corps for comparison)

SF Renegades' regular season travel (excluding Finals): about 1,470 miles round-trip

Reading Buccaneers' regular season travel (excluding Finals): about 1,810 miles round-trip

Shenandoah Sound's regular season travel (excluding Finals): about 3,100 miles roundtrip

SF Renegades' to Rochester: about 2,721 miles one-way

Reading Buccaneers' one-way to Rochester: about 265 miles one-way

Shenandoah Sound's one-way to Rochester: about 395 miles one-way

SF Renegades' total annual travel: about 6,912 miles round-trip

Reading Buccaneers' total annual travel: about 2,340 miles round-trip

Shenandoah Sound's total annual travel: about 3,892 miles round-trip

The one huge trip the West coast corps make each year doesn't impress me as much when I know that I'm traveling more than double the distance they are for the 9 or 10 weeks prior to Championships. Remember, in the same way that the average show out there doesn't pay you, neither do the average South shows. But going to Rochester yields a paycheck.

A nice rebuttal...but have you figured in the FINANCIAL costs? I would guess that Renegades might "win" there....

[Sayre Kulp]

Fact of the matter: folks outside the northeast have said that it must be nice to perform in front of large crowds during the season, instead of a couple hundred here and there. And that's true. It also proves the point about where the crowd comes from. A Championship site has been (and should continue to be) based on where the paying fans are, not the proximity to the corps themselves. If you told me DCA could sell 15,000 seats in Indianapolis, I'd say "move it there." Same would stand true for anywhere else. Point is, all-age corps is still a minority in most parts of the country. Until it gains a stronger foothold, you can't expect to see it move. Bottom line, grow your region. Keep building fans locally. Help start more drum corps in the area. Create competitions in the region. If Championships were going to move anywhere outside the north east, it would probably be South. Why? They have the next largest group of corps, have been supporting their own regional championships for a while now, and have a decent fan following developing. Of course, they've been at this the longest, next to the NE guys. So keep at it, keep working and as I said before, eventually the regions will grow and expand, bridging the gap between them. Once that happens, corps will be able to travel a little more each year until this thing does become more of a national activity. Still, don't expect the Bucs to go to CA any time soon. But you would likely be able to hold your own shows in CA with 4-6 corps in attendance. Plus, I still say that Championships shouldn't be the "end all / be all" of drum corps.

[MiniSopGuy]

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<edit><nevermind, not gonna get involved, I posted up a California view way back a few pages>

Edited September 23, 2008 by MiniSopGuy

[OldStyleCorps]

Fact of the matter: folks outside the northeast have said that it must be nice to perform in front of large crowds during the season, instead of a couple hundred here and there. And that's true. It also proves the point about where the crowd comes from. A Championship site has been (and should continue to be) based on where the paying fans are, not the proximity to the corps themselves. If you told me DCA could sell 15,000 seats in Indianapolis, I'd say "move it there." Same would stand true for anywhere else. Point is, all-age corps is still a minority in most parts of the country. Until it gains a stronger foothold, you can't expect to see it move. Bottom line, grow your region. Keep building fans locally. Help start more drum corps in the area. Create competitions in the region. If Championships were going to move anywhere outside the north east, it would probably be South. Why? They have the next largest group of corps, have been supporting their own regional championships for a while now, and have a decent fan following developing. Of course, they've been at this the longest, next to the NE guys. So keep at it, keep working and as I said before, eventually the regions will grow and expand, bridging the gap between them. Once that happens, corps will be able to travel a little more each year until this thing does become more of a national activity. Still, don't expect the Bucs to go to CA any time soon. But you would likely be able to hold your own shows in CA with 4-6 corps in attendance. Plus, I still say that Championships shouldn't be the "end all / be all" of drum corps.

BINGO ! ! We have a WINNER.

That is the BEST reply yet. AGREE 100%

[Scerpella]

SF Renegades' regular season travel (excluding Finals): about 1,470 miles round-trip

Reading Buccaneers' regular season travel (excluding Finals): about 1,810 miles round-trip

Shenandoah Sound's regular season travel (excluding Finals): about 3,100 miles roundtrip

This is a misleading use of statistics. In 04 and 06 Renegades made 2 trips east, one to DeKalb, and one to Winston Salem in addition to DCA. This is something the non eastern corps consider every year because they feel they need to get DCA panels judging them before DCA prelims.

[84BDsop]

Fact of the matter: folks outside the northeast have said that it must be nice to perform in front of large crowds during the season, instead of a couple hundred here and there. And that's true. It also proves the point about where the crowd comes from. A Championship site has been (and should continue to be) based on where the paying fans are, not the proximity to the corps themselves. If you told me DCA could sell 15,000 seats in Indianapolis, I'd say "move it there." Same would stand true for anywhere else. Point is, all-age corps is still a minority in most parts of the country. Until it gains a stronger foothold, you can't expect to see it move. Bottom line, grow your region. Keep building fans locally. Help start more drum corps in the area. Create competitions in the region. If Championships were going to move anywhere outside the north east, it would probably be South. Why? They have the next largest group of corps, have been supporting their own regional championships for a while now, and have a decent fan following developing. Of course, they've been at this the longest, next to the NE guys. So keep at it, keep working and as I said before, eventually the regions will grow and expand, bridging the gap between them. Once that happens, corps will be able to travel a little more each year until this thing does become more of a national activity. Still, don't expect the Bucs to go to CA any time soon. But you would likely be able to hold your own shows in CA with 4-6 corps in attendance. Plus, I still say that Championships shouldn't be the "end all / be all" of drum corps.

I agree with you.....my point was that you can't just use miles travelled in a season without factoring in the increasing financial factors (although I would leave out housding at DCA....since everyone gets hit there....the price differances probably aren't as varied between -- for example -- between Bucs and Renegades conpared to transportation costs for those same corps)

[OldStyleCorps]

I agree with you.....my point was that you can't just use miles travelled in a season without factoring in the increasing financial factors (although I would leave out housding at DCA....since everyone gets hit there....the price differances probably aren't as varied between -- for example -- between Bucs and Renegades conpared to transportation costs for those same corps)

Let me see here.

The North East DID NOT let all their Corps die off. (like the Midwest, West, and South) So their punisment should be give money to groups that have to come East once a year to compete in Championships. OR Move Championships to a place that will not make as large of a profit.

The West Coast has a DCI problem. I know that. But, it can ONLY be cured by THEM. (there DCA groups out there.)

The Midwest, and the South are both showing that it can be done from scratch. Both areas are growing and travel is becoming shorter to MORE Full DCA contests. The South had NOTHING before CorpsVets, Heat Wave Carolina Gold and now MCL, Sun Devils, Gulf Coast, Alliance and MORE. Heck who would have thought 10 years ago ATLANTA,GEORGIA would have "TWO" DCA groups. (4 full DCA Shows) AND they complain Far less.

The Midwest is BUILDING like crazy also. Use to be only the Minnesota Brass. Now look. Kilties, Govies, Chops, Lakeshoremen and more coming. At least 4 Full DCA Shows.

Looks also like a DCA SW (Southwest) will beat the West coast to having their own division. Frontier, Gulf Coast, Austin, Prairie Sound and maybe High Country from DENVER. Masquarade of Baton Rouge when ready could go either SW or South.

GROW "YOUR" REGION. Take the power from the Northeast. It is up to YOU!!!

PS where are they?

Kenosha Kingsmen - Wisc,

Hams Indians - St. Paul, Minn.

Skokie Indians - Ill.

Boy's of '76 - Wisc.

Kewanee Black Knights - Ill

Spirit of St. Louis, Ill.

Legion of Brass - Ohio

Lamplighters - Detroit, Mich.

Commenwealth Edison - Chicago, Ill

Laidlaw Toreadors - Minneapolis, Minn

Golgen Kernels - LeMars, Iowa

Bismark Governairs - N. Dakota

Albuquerque Dukes - N. Mexico

Durango Goldenairs - Colorado

That is a "JUST " PARTIAL list of Senior Corps that made Finals at VFW and AL Nationals

And here are some places EASTERN Corps Won Nationals

Cab's in: Florida - Chicago - Minnieapolis - Denver - Las Vegas and many MORE !

Reading Buc's in Miami - Detroit - Minneapolis and More !

NY Skyliners in Los Angeles, Calif. and more.

Yankee Rebels in - Atlanta and Portland, Oregon

NY Sunrisers in New Orleans, LA

Rochester Crusaders in Portland, Oregon

"JUST" to name a very FEW of the farther away Nationals. So they have played the Travel to Nationals for YEARS.

(Remember too it took OVER 30 YEARS for DCI to come to Pasadena, Calif.)

Edited September 24, 2008 by OldStyleCorps

[84BDsop]

Let me see here.

The North East DID NOT let all their Corps die off. (like the Midwest, West, and South) So their punisment should be give money to groups that have to come East once a year to compete in Championships. OR Move Championships to a place that will not make as large of a profit.

You TOTALLY missed my point....I was not arguing that the eastern corps should, in effect, subsidize out of region corps to come to DCA....I was sayign that if you're going to quote stats to make a claim about how difficult it is for some corps to travel, you can't just use travel miles....you have to include travel COSTS as well.

(Remember too it took OVER 20 YEARS for DCI to come to Pasadena, Calif.)

35 to be exact....

[Jeff Ream]

Fact of the matter: folks outside the northeast have said that it must be nice to perform in front of large crowds during the season, instead of a couple hundred here and there. And that's true. It also proves the point about where the crowd comes from. A Championship site has been (and should continue to be) based on where the paying fans are, not the proximity to the corps themselves. If you told me DCA could sell 15,000 seats in Indianapolis, I'd say "move it there." Same would stand true for anywhere else. Point is, all-age corps is still a minority in most parts of the country. Until it gains a stronger foothold, you can't expect to see it move. Bottom line, grow your region. Keep building fans locally. Help start more drum corps in the area. Create competitions in the region. If Championships were going to move anywhere outside the north east, it would probably be South. Why? They have the next largest group of corps, have been supporting their own regional championships for a while now, and have a decent fan following developing. Of course, they've been at this the longest, next to the NE guys. So keep at it, keep working and as I said before, eventually the regions will grow and expand, bridging the gap between them. Once that happens, corps will be able to travel a little more each year until this thing does become more of a national activity. Still, don't expect the Bucs to go to CA any time soon. But you would likely be able to hold your own shows in CA with 4-6 corps in attendance. Plus, I still say that Championships shouldn't be the "end all / be all" of drum corps.

wow. we keep agreeing way too much

[Dale Bari]

I was sayign that if you're going to quote stats to make a claim about how difficult it is for some corps to travel, you can't just use travel miles....you have to include travel COSTS as well.

Do the Renegades' members pay the cost directly for traveling via airliner to Rochester? Or does the corps pay for that travel (via fundraisers and dues, which I would call INdirect costs to members)?

In 2006, I posted some comparisons like Sayre did above. And I received some of the same criticisms. I'd venture that, depending partly on the answer to my above question, the average NE corps member's travel costs (even including Finals) would be equal to those of a similarly situated Renegade member, mainly because the NE person would be traveling to shows every single weekend, and the equivalent Renegade would not.

Of course, my situation was a little odd because I had shorter trips to shows than to camps (being in VA and most shows being in PA/NJ/Southern Tier NY vs camps in Rochester.)

From a $/mile POV, air travel is probably cheaper than driving. What's the cost in gas from SFO to ROC vs the cost of flying? The hassle of going to an airport every single Friday/Sunday (which I have done) is worth a lot of gas. It's a good thing for the Renegades that they only do that once a year. (Twice in '05, which, come to think of it, will be four (4!) seasons in the past come next summer. That's not good for those who continue to cite that as evidence that Renegades do a lot of traveling besides to Finals.)

I'm not saying there's no burden on non-NE corps to get to Finals (or even regular season shows). I'm saying that (esp if the flying is factored into the costs the Renegades charge their members) the non-NE corps understood this as a cost of doing business in DCA and budgeted accordingly. The NE corps still have little incentive to leave their area - THAT'S WHERE THEIR FANS ARE! It still comes down, as Sayre has said (very well), to being a "build it and they will come!" scenario. Build up the show and fan base in other areas, and the corps will gravitate toward those areas - whether it's the home-grown corps or the occasional NE visitor corps.

A couple posts ago, a comparison was made between current non-NE corps and past NE corps traveling to far corners of the country for VFW/AL contests. That's a little disingenuous because, first of all those were many decades ago, and second, those corps had no say in where the national contests were - the veterans' orgs decided that FOR them! Cru travelled to Portland, OR, in 1965 to win AL Nats because the AL said that's where Nats would be, and Cru, Cabs, Sky, et al, had to choose to go or not.

But, the ultimate point is that, when faced with that choice, those corps packed their bags and ventured forth from New York, New Jersey, etc and trekked across the continent to compete. Shortly thereafter, those corps took control of their own destiny and built their own competitive circuit closer to home. Now, Renegades, Dream, et al, are doing the same exact thing.

Keep working on building up the local corps scene. Present-day sacrifices and hard work WILL pay future dividends.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Dale Bari