What would it take to get Pioneer from last place in World Class?

[ouooga]

I understand the benefits of Open Class, but the big kicker behind it is that Pioneer needs members. They're going to get that from recruiting and marketing, and right now their number one marketing tool is the allure of World Class. If they lose that, membership will probably go down or at least stay the same. It will definitely not go up.

Question Donny....with the member numbers you usually have in May, could you feasibly field a corps? I heard something about 22 in the brass line. It may not be much, but you can still definitely get things done with that number, and if it's a small corps at least it'll be a small corps that has been working together through camps, rather than half a corps that's been working through camps and half a corps that starts in May.

[Tom Brace]

I haven't seen Pioneer much in the last 10 years (prob not even at all actually). I only know what I've read here on DCP. (Yes, that does mean I may be setting myself up.)

I've read with interest all of the comments here, and I can't improve upon them from a nuts-and-bolts aspect. The ideas about staff retention, great source material, recruiting, improving the drill, guard, uni, etc all sound wonderful - but they all revolve around a common theme.

All organizations that are or seem (arguably the same thing) mired in a rut get out of them by being imaginative and BOLD! (Not that I want to inject politics into this, but whatever you think of him, a great recent example of a bold choice to change a static situation came from the Presidential campaign: John McCain made a bold but risky move in choosing the person he did for Vice-Pres.) I suppose that, even though last place is still last place, the corps that seems stuck there (as Pioneer is) may feel that jeopardizing even a tiny bit of improvement (like finishing just 0.1 behind the next corps vs being last by a lot) is too risky.

But, at some point a decision for strong change must be made. (Remember the old adage about insanity being the expectation of different results from doing the same thing every time.) The key is knowing what change must be made and when it should be implemented. A great NFL coach (I think it was Bill Parcells) put a book out about 8-9 years ago about leadership. One of his precepts was knowing when to stick to the plan and when to deviate from the plan, so proper timing is essential.

Pio needs a game-changing move. DA recognizes this. Whether anyone else at Pio does or not is crucial.

I've not met the guy, and I can only guess at his personality (as it involves the corps), but it seems that Roman is quite the conservative guy. That kind of steady, unflappable leadership helps see a corps (and any other org) through many a tough time, but sometimes that can get in the way of making the kinds of changes necessary to move forward. I think, though, if he's convinced of a necessary change, it will happen, whether he makes it himself or delegates it to someone else. It's his corps; Roman has to be onboard with the changes(s). Tradition is important to him and the corps (and to me too), and it should not be set aside lightly. But, eventually even the most conservative leaders, and their orgs, have to be aware of seismic changes and adapt or be swallowed up.

However, any change should be made to turn a weakness into a strength, not to weaken something that is already strong. (McCain's choice of Palin eliminated the "experience" charge against Obama, but that wasn't working for McCain anyway. His choice had more to do with shoring up his weakness with his base voters.) It takes good self-awareness to know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Many people have referenced the Irish theme. Is it a strength (an easily recognizable theme for the corps - not the shows, but the corps) or is it a weakness (repetitive show designs keeping potential recruits away)? If the former, keep it. If the latter, it may be time to break from that tradition.

But above of all else, remember: when it comes time to make a change, make it a strong and clean break. Be BOLD!

(PS: It does not have to be a highly visible change. It may be that the most important thing to change is something that only the corps itself sees, unless/until it shows up in improved competitive results.)

Love the Palin/McCain analogy, Dale...not quite working out right now though. McCain is actually becoming the drag on the ticket. People are leaving town halls after she speaks and before McCain gets into his schtick.

Anyway...

I think Pioneer MUST learn from the orgs that have turned it around.

I look at Blue Stars as one shining example of a corps who took a several stage approach for getting where they are today. And they realized along the way that one of their leaders could only get them so far, so then they found someone who could take them to the next level.

Here's the thing...No one person is forever...not even 72 year old Mavericks. Roman is not going to be doing drum corps forever. Pioneer has some daunting challenges ahead of them and cheif among them is how Pioneer establishes an identity away from Roman. Right now the Greek fisherman hat is a common theme when people think of Pioneer. It's earned recognition no doubt, but for the corps to truly sustain inperpetuity, the image needs to move beyond Roman.

Alumni were instrumental in the changes with Blue Stars. They wanted a corps that was World Class. They were involved in helping make that happen. Blue Stars is now World Class. And they did it without taking a year off to reorganize, etc.

They have a model for success in LaCrosse. Can it be replicated in Milwaukee? Can it be replicated anywhere else?

[MikeD]

Here's the thing...No one person is forever...not even 72 year old Mavericks. Roman is not going to be doing drum corps forever. Pioneer has some daunting challenges ahead of them and cheif among them is how Pioneer establishes an identity away from Roman.

A question because I have no idea...

How much of Pioneer's existence at all is wrapped up in the continued involvement and remarkable dedication of one person, Roman Blenski? Is his vision and desire keeping the corps going? Or is there an infrastructure in place to support a post-Roman Pioneer?

[baritone9172]

I understand the benefits of Open Class, but the big kicker behind it is that Pioneer needs members. They're going to get that from recruiting and marketing, and right now their number one marketing tool is the allure of World Class. If they lose that, membership will probably go down or at least stay the same. It will definitely not go up.

Question Donny....with the member numbers you usually have in May, could you feasibly field a corps? I heard something about 22 in the brass line. It may not be much, but you can still definitely get things done with that number, and if it's a small corps at least it'll be a small corps that has been working together through camps, rather than half a corps that's been working through camps and half a corps that starts in May.

That allure can't be their number one marketing tool from the beginning of the season if they have 22 horns in May. That marketing tool has proved to diminish in effectiveness over the years. Maybe it worked several years back, but not anymore. Marketing Open Class and moving into that division may actually improve their membership or at least maintain the same numbers from 08 if done properly.

I don't want this thread to turn into an argument but you argue it may not work to go Open Class but then you say they could just go for it and compete in World Class with 22 horns? Unless you mean 22 horns in Open Class, a corps cannot compete in World Class and expect competitive results with a brassline that small. Maybe Cadets can try that one out some year...

[IllianaLancerContra]

A question because I have no idea...

How much of Pioneer's existence at all is wrapped up in the continued involvement and remarkable dedication of one person, Roman Blenski? Is his vision and desire keeping the corps going? Or is there an infrastructure in place to support a post-Roman Pioneer?

I think it is more than just Roman, but it is pretty much a family enterprise. But thinking about it, so were 27, Anaheim, and Star of Indiana to various degrees - and when the family gave it up, so went the corps. So your point is well taken. Sort of like North Korea. but different.

Look at Troopers and SCV on the other hand - you can't get more legendary than Jones and Royer, but they set up a way ahead for when they were gone.

[Donny Drum Corps]

Obviously we hoped for more than 22 brass all winter, but honestly without an influx of students from Capital Sound the day before move ins, I cant tell you what we would have done, We unexpectedly picked some students up from there and some recruiting in Florida payed off, but again we didnt know if they were definitely coming until they showed up in the first week of June after school let out.

One of Pioneer's most successful years (16th place Friday semifinalist) was 28 horns, That was 1999, and my involvement was as the brass arranger. The big difference was that we had those same kids all winter and adjustments were made in the written program to fit the corps membership. There was also a dedicated and talented staff that worked those kids hard to a high performance level.Much of that was also done last year and I am proud to say that the corps was very good by Quarterfinals. Even the Brigadoon (2000) show that many have mentioned on here was a small hornline and color guard.

I have to say how proud I am at the level the corps ended up with by DCI, but to answer the question, I took kids that were cut from the drum line and front pit to get the numbers to fill 36 brass spots. Those kids were actually playing and MARCHING VERY WELL by seasons end. But it is hard work and if there are ways to get that NOT to be the case, wouldnt that be a great start to a better season?

Of course it would.

Donny

[kac]

Cutting & pasting part of my PM to Donny in the hopes that someone higher up at Pio reads it-

Firstly, I am a big Pio fan. They are one of my favorite corps for many reasons.

With that said, think the corps problem currently is marketing.

Do they have a marketing person? Who puts out news feeds/announcements for the corps? I think that on top of member & staff retention, marketing and developing thier image is one of the largest problems that Pio has.

Example- here it is Sept 19th and there have already been numerous news feeds on DCP about staff changes, retentions, etc for various corps. Those same news feeds are on those corps websites, usually front & center with recruiting/membership/audtion info adjacent to it.

I just went to Pio's website & had to dig around for something from Sept 10th and that was a "beg your friends to join our corps/go be our marketing dept" notice to the membership.

Kids are checking out all of the world class sites RIGHT NOW in September to figure out where they want to audition and if they go to Pio's site they see something from a week and a half ago!!!! In the fall when announcements are made, and marketing should be at an all time high, 10 days without an update on the website is NOT good. This is the time for the big marketing blitz, and waiting to do it in November/December is too late. Pio should be putting out announcements left & right to get the hype up about the corps already.

Instead of asking the kids to bring their friends, they should create a volunteer schedule so that there are members, alumni, and administration at a Pio booth at a band show every weekend. They need to be seen locally & get the "come have a fun summer marching with us" message out to the local masses.

I also think the kids check out all of the World class sites are accustomed to seeing a more professional setup with the news feeds, announcements, etc. They do not see other corps managers/staff telling their members to bring friends with them to camps. That right there to many people is an outward sign of desperation (even if it's not true, that's what they are projecting) It's not giving off the image that the corps has its act together, or that they are of the calibur of the other WC corps. The the Sept 10th message itself makes Pio appear like a scrappy disorganized group..... regardless of how stable their finances are, or how great the organizational abilities of the staff/director may be.

The image that the corps is giving off to potential members probably isn't the image that the corps wants to give off if it is serious about moving upwards in the ranks of world class. It seems to be much more of one that is just scraping by rather than the image of success.

Think about the larger corps & what happens when they have holes. Even the mid-level 12-16th place corps gave off the image of "we have these few holes left & need great people to fill them", not one of "OMG we have 8 holes, let's panic and show our panic to the world". They still keep in mind their marketing strategy because if not the rumor mill in the world of drum corps could hurt their recruting for the next year. Pioneer needs to figure out a marketing plan & follow it so that they project the professionalism that they have as a group onto their prospects. There must be someone in the alumni ranks that is in the marketing field that could advise the corps and give them a marketing plan- find that person!

I also think that Pioneer needs to join forces with an indoor guard program in the area.... maybe not to start one of their own outright, but to perhaps adopt/sponsor one in the area somehow.... find a local HS or someone else in the Midwest CG Circuit that wants an independent winterguard but doesn't have the facilities available. Pio pays/gives them the facilities to use & the guard members from the indoor unit get a discount on their summer Pio dues. Sure, it would be some outlay for Pio, but it could be a great marketing tool. Also the current Pio guard members got more experience thoughout the year and the Pio guard would gain more members from the indoor program b/c they'd be marching for cheap in the summer. Then when the drummers complain about the unfairness of it all, do the same for them with an indoor drumline....

I don't know a thing about staff retention, so if the staff is good but is underpaid, then give them all raises so they will stay.

So anyway, for me it really comes down to marketing & recruting. It doesn't matter what the corps plays, or how great the tour might be for the kids if the goal is to retain members and move out of last place. They need to seriously scrutinize the manner in which they advertise themselves to potential members, and make changes there first.

[heycameraguy]

Cutting & pasting part of my PM to Donny in the hopes that someone higher up at Pio reads it-

Firstly, I am a big Pio fan. They are one of my favorite corps for many reasons.

With that said, think the corps problem currently is marketing.

Do they have a marketing person? Who puts out news feeds/announcements for the corps? I think that on top of member & staff retention, marketing and developing thier image is one of the largest problems that Pio has.

Example- here it is Sept 19th and there have already been numerous news feeds on DCP about staff changes, retentions, etc for various corps. Those same news feeds are on those corps websites, usually front & center with recruiting/membership/audtion info adjacent to it.

I just went to Pio's website & had to dig around for something from Sept 10th and that was a "beg your friends to join our corps/go be our marketing dept" notice to the membership.

Kids are checking out all of the world class sites RIGHT NOW in September to figure out where they want to audition and if they go to Pio's site they see something from a week and a half ago!!!! In the fall when announcements are made, and marketing should be at an all time high, 10 days without an update on the website is NOT good. This is the time for the big marketing blitz, and waiting to do it in November/December is too late. Pio should be putting out announcements left & right to get the hype up about the corps already.

Instead of asking the kids to bring their friends, they should create a volunteer schedule so that there are members, alumni, and administration at a Pio booth at a band show every weekend. They need to be seen locally & get the "come have a fun summer marching with us" message out to the local masses.

I also think the kids check out all of the World class sites are accustomed to seeing a more professional setup with the news feeds, announcements, etc. They do not see other corps managers/staff telling their members to bring friends with them to camps. That right there to many people is an outward sign of desperation (even if it's not true, that's what they are projecting) It's not giving off the image that the corps has its act together, or that they are of the calibur of the other WC corps. The the Sept 10th message itself makes Pio appear like a scrappy disorganized group..... regardless of how stable their finances are, or how great the organizational abilities of the staff/director may be.

The image that the corps is giving off to potential members probably isn't the image that the corps wants to give off if it is serious about moving upwards in the ranks of world class. It seems to be much more of one that is just scraping by rather than the image of success.

Think about the larger corps & what happens when they have holes. Even the mid-level 12-16th place corps gave off the image of "we have these few holes left & need great people to fill them", not one of "OMG we have 8 holes, let's panic and show our panic to the world". They still keep in mind their marketing strategy because if not the rumor mill in the world of drum corps could hurt their recruting for the next year. Pioneer needs to figure out a marketing plan & follow it so that they project the professionalism that they have as a group onto their prospects. There must be someone in the alumni ranks that is in the marketing field that could advise the corps and give them a marketing plan- find that person!

I also think that Pioneer needs to join forces with an indoor guard program in the area.... maybe not to start one of their own outright, but to perhaps adopt/sponsor one in the area somehow.... find a local HS or someone else in the Midwest CG Circuit that wants an independent winterguard but doesn't have the facilities available. Pio pays/gives them the facilities to use & the guard members from the indoor unit get a discount on their summer Pio dues. Sure, it would be some outlay for Pio, but it could be a great marketing tool. Also the current Pio guard members got more experience thoughout the year and the Pio guard would gain more members from the indoor program b/c they'd be marching for cheap in the summer. Then when the drummers complain about the unfairness of it all, do the same for them with an indoor drumline....

I don't know a thing about staff retention, so if the staff is good but is underpaid, then give them all raises so they will stay.

So anyway, for me it really comes down to marketing & recruting. It doesn't matter what the corps plays, or how great the tour might be for the kids if the goal is to retain members and move out of last place. They need to seriously scrutinize the manner in which they advertise themselves to potential members, and make changes there first.

Very well said. I would invite Murray and Roman to read all of this and do what is in the best interest of the kids. The fact that he wants do things "his" way (his way= outdated), suggests the corps his for him and NOT for the youth.

[MikeZ]

If anyone thinks Roman is doing this for himself and not for the kids obviously does not know Roman and have never had any contact with the corps. Although I don't always agree with everything that Roman does, I have no doubt in my mind that he is doing what he thinks is best for the kids.

I had a great experience marching Pioneer. My wife had a great experience marching Pioneer. In the mid 90's the corps provided not only a great "life" experience but an excellent "competitive" experience as well. Roman was the executive director of the corps at that time and although he was running DCM as well at the time he was still heavily involved with Pioneer. The corps can thrive with Roman at the helm.

It's interesting to read everyones suggestions for the corps. I know most just want to see a healthy Pioneer for years to come. I would be especially interested to see what suggestions other alumni of the corps have. I know what it is like to have a fufilling "life/competitive" experience with the corps. It is my hope many other kids get that experience in the future.

Mike Z

Pioneer bari/euph 94-98

Edited September 19, 2008 by MikeZ

[heycameraguy]

If anyone thinks Roman is doing this for himself and not for the kids obviously does not know Roman and have never had any contact with the corps. Although I don't always agree with everything that Roman does, I have no doubt in my mind that he is doing what he thinks is best for the kids.

I had a great experience marching Pioneer. My wife had a great experience marching Pioneer. In the mid 90's the corps provided not only a great "life" experience but an excellent "competitive" experience as well. Roman was the executive director of the corps at that time and although he was running DCM as well at the time he was still heavily involved with Pioneer. The corps can thrive with Roman at the helm.

It's interesting to read everyones suggestions for the corps. I know most just want to see a healthy Pioneer for years to come. I would be especially interested to see what suggestions other alumni of the corps have. I know what it is like to have a fufilling "life/competitive" experience with the corps. It is my hope many other kids get that experience in the future.

Mike Z

Pioneer bari/euph 94-98

And I don't have any doubt that he thinks what he is doing is best for the corps. The problem is that he has blinders on. The corps was once a great Div 2-3 corps in the 90's and had some success as a Div 1 corps, even making it to semifinals a couple of years. But the corps has regressed. But rather than Roman recognize that he can no longer keep the corps competitive with other groups and step out of the way for new leadership, he continues the corps down the same path that has led the group to the bottom of the activity, placement wise. Yes, kids want a great experience traveling and seeing the counrty, but they are also competitive. They have pride in their performance, but that need has not been met. It hasn't been met for some time now. IF he truly had the kids best interests in mind, he would not stand in the way. But he does stand in the way rather stubbornly. By not recognizing and meeting these challenges, he continues to show he is out of touch with the state of the activity. Say what you want, but I will stand by what I say...and I am Pioneer alumni!