What would it take to get Pioneer from last place in World Class?

[warsawstory]

I admire the Pioneer organization. It's really nice to see a group that lives within there means. Roman seems to have a gift for being thrifty and knowing how to stretch a dollar.

Here's my two cents.

Find a really creative, pushy grant writer. With the Zilber Foundation being created to help with Milwaukee's ills it would be a great time to try to tap into that money. Here's a wacky idea. Start a feeder corps based out of St Patrick's parish on the south side. I think the old money Milwaukee foundations would eat that up.

I've already given my musical choices on another thread. Be edgy. This Disney-fied version of Ireland is getting old. Please, think about exploring Irish (rock) music from the last two decades and let it rip. Everybody loves an underdog. Audiences will respond well if they realize you are going out on a limb.

How do you recreate that spark Pioneer had as a top ranked division 2 corps? That's probably the toughest challenge.

[IllianaLancerContra]

I admire the Pioneer organization. It's really nice to see a group that lives within there means. Roman seems to have a gift for being thrifty and knowing how to stretch a dollar.

Here's my two cents.

Find a really creative, pushy grant writer. With the Zilber Foundation being created to help with Milwaukee's ills it would be a great time to try to tap into that money. Here's a wacky idea. Start a feeder corps based out of St Patrick's parish on the south side. I think the old money Milwaukee foundations would eat that up.

I've already given my musical choices on another thread. Be edgy. This Disney-fied version of Ireland is getting old. Please, think about exploring Irish (rock) music from the last two decades and let it rip. Everybody loves an underdog. Audiences will respond well if they realize you are going out on a limb.

How do you recreate that spark Pioneer had as a top ranked division 2 corps? That's probably the toughest challenge.

Good Idea

to add another two cents-

Look at the SF Renegades business model - and adapt it to your area. Then, with the $$ make capital improvements/investments. Hire the best instructors $$ can buy - all new horns/drums. Buy a 747 and fly everywhere. Stay in 5-star hotels....

[Jeff Ream]

it all starts with staff. you get some names, people will follow. Also, a new look and marketing campaign can help. Look what the Troop did to keep their name alive in a good way during their year off.

design: regardless of what theme or flavor you take on, you have to make it not seem like the same old same old. I didn't see Pio from 2003 to 2006, and then again until 2008. it seemed the same even with years in between.

agressive recruiting to go along with name staff. get a booth at WGI, BOA, TOB. look outside the local area like others have done.

a lot of the off the field stuff can help. Remember, the internet helped create a DCA corps in California. It can help do wonders for a DCI corps as well.

finally......keep members from getting their feet wet and bolting. look at Blue Stars. that helped them grow from D3 to World finalist

[Dale Bari]

I haven't seen Pioneer much in the last 10 years (prob not even at all actually). I only know what I've read here on DCP. (Yes, that does mean I may be setting myself up.)

I've read with interest all of the comments here, and I can't improve upon them from a nuts-and-bolts aspect. The ideas about staff retention, great source material, recruiting, improving the drill, guard, uni, etc all sound wonderful - but they all revolve around a common theme.

All organizations that are or seem (arguably the same thing) mired in a rut get out of them by being imaginative and BOLD! (Not that I want to inject politics into this, but whatever you think of him, a great recent example of a bold choice to change a static situation came from the Presidential campaign: John McCain made a bold but risky move in choosing the person he did for Vice-Pres.) I suppose that, even though last place is still last place, the corps that seems stuck there (as Pioneer is) may feel that jeopardizing even a tiny bit of improvement (like finishing just 0.1 behind the next corps vs being last by a lot) is too risky.

But, at some point a decision for strong change must be made. (Remember the old adage about insanity being the expectation of different results from doing the same thing every time.) The key is knowing what change must be made and when it should be implemented. A great NFL coach (I think it was Bill Parcells) put a book out about 8-9 years ago about leadership. One of his precepts was knowing when to stick to the plan and when to deviate from the plan, so proper timing is essential.

Pio needs a game-changing move. DA recognizes this. Whether anyone else at Pio does or not is crucial.

I've not met the guy, and I can only guess at his personality (as it involves the corps), but it seems that Roman is quite the conservative guy. That kind of steady, unflappable leadership helps see a corps (and any other org) through many a tough time, but sometimes that can get in the way of making the kinds of changes necessary to move forward. I think, though, if he's convinced of a necessary change, it will happen, whether he makes it himself or delegates it to someone else. It's his corps; Roman has to be onboard with the changes(s). Tradition is important to him and the corps (and to me too), and it should not be set aside lightly. But, eventually even the most conservative leaders, and their orgs, have to be aware of seismic changes and adapt or be swallowed up.

However, any change should be made to turn a weakness into a strength, not to weaken something that is already strong. (McCain's choice of Palin eliminated the "experience" charge against Obama, but that wasn't working for McCain anyway. His choice had more to do with shoring up his weakness with his base voters.) It takes good self-awareness to know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Many people have referenced the Irish theme. Is it a strength (an easily recognizable theme for the corps - not the shows, but the corps) or is it a weakness (repetitive show designs keeping potential recruits away)? If the former, keep it. If the latter, it may be time to break from that tradition.

But above of all else, remember: when it comes time to make a change, make it a strong and clean break. Be BOLD!

(PS: It does not have to be a highly visible change. It may be that the most important thing to change is something that only the corps itself sees, unless/until it shows up in improved competitive results.)

Edited September 19, 2008 by Dale Bari

[cowtown]

I like Pioneer’s approach and I wonder if the only way to improve their standing is to change their philosophy. And would that really be in their best interest, would they still be Pioneer if they broke the marchers with 15 hour practices a day?

I like the feeder, parade corps idea, think the winter guard idea is good too – their kids would be better prepared for summer then

What is their retention rate? Maybe develop a membership structure that greatly benefits those that stick around (lower dues based upon number of years, more advancement opportunities within the corps, more responsibilities, more challenges to keep them interested in the corps longer – so they don’t out grow it)

I thought their programming was a bit more advanced this past year, so I’d stick with that route

[wishbonecav]

Gonna chime in here.

Pioneer has the ability from an organizational standpoint to field, travel, feed and provide the necessary competitive tools (equipment and uniforms) to the membership each year.

I would guess that the member experience from this point of view is excellent.

Competitively, and that's what this thread is about, the corps under-scores its closest competitors from the first show.

From this standpoint, the member experience must be difficult, especially in terms of maintaining rehearsal and performance enthusiasm.

So let's brainstorm ideas that could enhance the competitive experience and give the members an opportunity to develop a little swagger, pride and a sense of possibility.

Going out on a limb: is it possible for Pioneer to abandon the score sheet altogether for the sake of "getting people talking" and developing a following through a throw-back-type show with elements of volume and entertainment being paramount to degree-of-difficulty or musicality?

OH THE HERESY!!!

Stay with me: the Blue Coats shows in '86 and '87 put them on the map, even though they didn't score well. Undeniably, "people were talking" about the 12 man snare line and the throw-back elements of drum-to-drum sticking. The hornlines were actually lousy in terms of degree of difficulty and technical proficiency, but the crowd was humming Autumn Leaves and the VOLUME level was incredible (at times). Oh...And the soloist kicked a**.

I remember seeing their hornline warm-up arc outside Ivor Wynn Stadium at DCI Canada in '87 and they were literally "announcing their presence" to the point where many drum corps fans were asking with a smile "who's that?" This was not as much about establishing "identity" as it was about punching people in the face and saying "We are the Blue Coats". On the field, they took 11th (barely, because, from a judging standpoint, they were not real good); but they became an event. During the summer, people would literally rush to their seats to see the Blue Coats and it was a springboard to the corps' success.

Statesmen, in the early years, abandoned the scoresheet altogether and MADE CERTAIN that people were talking. We knew we weren't going to win before we set foot on the field, but there was a swagger because we had the mustard to deliver something unique, exciting, entertaining and identifiable.

This isn't a gimmick. It's about giving the fans (and members) something unexpected that they can be "pleasantly surprised by."

The fans WILL respond if you give them this treat.

Look at DCA individuals this year...who got the biggest response?...a full scale standing-oh...not for doing what everyone else was doing, but for doing something so totally different, and yet familiar, that she hit the audience in the HEART.

It was Deb Peterson of the Anaheim Kingsmen who did an OLD SCHOOL rifle presentation in the uniform of the corps proper wearing boots, a shako and a skirt. SHE DIDN'T WIN...but she created a buzz of appreciation and enthusiasm for herself, her corps and the fans.

Way, way, cool.

Imagine a rifle line in Pioneer that was dressed in the uniform of the corps proper doing spins, doubles, triples, NO DANCING, but high leg lift in the company front and a curtsy of the skirt at the end.....WOW!

They would come from miles around just to see it.

And it wouldn't score. And who cares. Every kid in that rifle line would take on a status beyond "the sheet"

They would turn into a "must-see." And THAT would jack up the member experience to a pretty wild proportion.

Trust me.

(now go steal my idea...it's ok!)

Edited September 19, 2008 by wishbonecav

[Blackstar]

If I had a choice betweeen a "winning" Pioneer and the current model I would vote current. Why, Because you can't win with the kids you have. Thats not a put down but look at the other corps. I guess (and I know someone will correct me) the average age of the top 5 is 19 years old. Pioneer is, what, 17. I also wonder how many of the those "kids" come from schools wioth good music programs.

Pioneer is giving kids a chance to do things that they wouldn't do. See the country. Experience the thrill of playing in front of thousands. Getting exposure to new and different things.

But start improving and the people who thought Pioneer wasn't worth it now what to be part of it. Sure it's easier because you don't have to teach someone how to play. Sure it's easier to just put them on the field and learn drill.

But think of the look on that kids face at the end of the year. The way he plays that horn or drum. The sense of pride they have for being part of a group that cared enough to take the time and do something for them that no one else would.

Trust when I say Pioneer is already a winner. And when I say it's the kind of corps I would want my kids to march in, thats the highest compliment I could give.

[heycameraguy]

Donny, some times you have to take chances in life to improve something you feel strongly in. So posting your thoughts here, I think, are warranted.

Pioneer is mired in image perception problems. I can appreciate the way Roman has kept the corps on the field year after year, when so many other corps have folded. But it is also that approach that has also kept Pioneer at the bottom of the heap. He is comfortable with keeping the corps where it is so he can keep tight control over it. If the corps would take more chances and do better competitively, the less relevant he'll feel.

The saying goes, the greater the risk, the greater the reward. But treading cautiously never gets anywhere.

I would immediately:

1) Get rid of the hat and bring in a newer version of the old aussie.

2) Make recruitment and business/office operations seperate positions, with a person for each.

3) Hire a more contemporary corps director who can relate to today's youth.

4) Hire a director of music to explore all options for show music, design, etc.

5) Hire a staff coordinator who will hold all teaching staff accountable for doing there jobs well, and make sure they are not there just to have a good time while being paid.

That's where I would start.

[bacplus]

All of these points are well taken.

Again, the intent of the post was just to get some conversation going in a positive direction. Of course, I know some of the posters, and some know me. Just for clarification, if you dont know me, I believe that my heart is in the right place. I didnt start this thread to start trouble.

If you are Pioneer alumni like I have seen posting, you have an idea what this group is about. I am sure that the corps would appreciate your support in some way. The instructors that were teching at Pio when I wrote music there were working for Colts, Boston and other corps as well. I dont blame them for taking other opportunities if they are available.

There are many ideas, but as someone said, Pioneer did a better season last summer after we got rolling. The problem is when we dont have kids during the winter, we have to start in May. We are trying to get full when everyone has been full for ssome time.

Lastly I wouldnt want anyone to get the wrong idea about any of this...I absolutely appreciate what Roman has done for the average drum corps kid year after year.

Donny

Donnie I sent you a PM. Removing "MES" as a Brass tech would be a plus. It can't hurt.

-Bill

[MetalTones2012]

Everybody keeps saying that they should move away from the Irish theme. While I think it would be a good idea, I don't think that has anything to do with your scores. The Mandarins, for example, don't use strict Asian themes every year and still maintain that identity, yet they're only slghtly better than you guys in the rankings (and back in DII/III they were a competitive powerhouse).

I think the only issues are staff and members. Even if you have to throw around a little bit of money, get the best you can find at least as consultants. Once you get some famous names on board, new members will show up as well and your talent pool will be that much better.

This year, the Raiders (Open Class) got Gino Cipriani as a brass consultant. Let's see how much better they are by June.

PS: I think that any corps with less than 120 members should be Open Class regardless of financial situation, but that's just me.

Edited September 19, 2008 by MetalTones2012