The End to the Color Guard Controversy

[bigdaddy]

Deftguy, Nancy, and Sally,

OCTUPLE AMEN!!!!!!!!! (SQUARED!)!!!

:)

Alright, alright....AMEN !!! Does that make it 64 ????

Hey, we got a pretty formidable line here now:

Nancy, Sally, Sue, Deft, Rob, Me.....throw in Terri too.....now that I would love to see !!

~G~

Hey I like the old stuff. I marched in the seventies. ####, I march in the Royal Airs NOW. I don't think it's getting much more old-timey than that!

I like the new stuff too. I just try to be fair and open minded to all eras is all.

Thanks Terri for answering my question.

Now, for the other part, I didn't think that the RA were a competitive corps in DCA. I'm sorry, I meant competitive senior corps guards...or are you competing this year?

It does seem like their guards do have dance and movement or are people saying it's a minimum amount and it's all about equipment work? I haven't seen a senior corps competition since 81 or 82. One corps played Crown Imperial, it was fabulous, I almost cried! But I don't remember who it was....

:(

I never marched in guard at all. I'm a horn player.

I have marched two years of competitive senior corps, the Kilties in 2000 and 2002. I also marched in the Royal Airs last year so that means I did two corps last year alone. I've been to DCA every year since '99 except '00.

My son has marched five years in Capital Sound.

I think the KIDS like what they are doing now. In fact, I know it.

I am entitled to MY opinion as much as anyone else on here.

And that's all folks.

:( Where did I say that no-one is entitled to their own opinions??

I simply inferred that mine were formed by years of experience in the Junior level, and that I have a problem with those who berate the junior level without having marched, sweatted, and experienced first hand the DCI touring-corps life--once again my opinion.

Does this mean I look down at senior and alumni corps--NO, but you have to say that these are different experiences from my own.

Do I look down at the fans-NO-understand though that I see things through the eyes of a person who has given his quite a bit of his life (like it or not GM) to touring level junior corps.

I respect the opinions of others on this board (well , most of 'em anyway) but they are just that, your opinions!!. As my signature states,you know what they say about opinions.

Believe me--I am a fan of this activity back to its roots. I just think that it is ever-evolving, and I really like it in its current form. I also think that it will head in the right direction. If something really is that bad within the corps idiom, it will not be greatly embraced.

There you go..think about it, everyone.

Edited May 1, 2003 by bigdaddy

[TerriDitt57]

[

:( Where did I say that no-one is entitled to their own opinions??

I simply inferred that mine were formed by years of experience in the Junior level, and that I have a problem with those who berate the junior level without having marched, sweatted, and experienced first hand the DCI touring-corps life--once again my opinion.

Does this mean I look down at senoir and alumni corps--NO, but you have to say that these are different experiences form my own.

Do I look down at the fans-NO-understand though that I see things through the eyes of a person who has given his quite a bit of his life (like it or not GM) to touring level junior corps.

I respect your opinions (well , most of 'em anyway) but they are just that, your opinions!!. As my signature states,you know what they say about opinions.

Believe me--I am a fan of this activity back to its roots. I just think that it is ever-evolving, and I really like it in its current form. I also think that it will head in the right direction. If something really is that bad within the corps idiom, it will not be greatly embraced.

There you go..think about it.

I wasn't directing that to you Marcus.

I marched juniors too. For a long time.

I like senior and alumni corps but I actually prefer to be around juniors.

And that's all I'm planning on doing next year.

[bigdaddy]

[

:( Where did I say that no-one is entitled to their own opinions??

I simply inferred that mine were formed by years of experience in the Junior level, and that I have a problem with those who berate the junior level without having marched, sweatted, and experienced first hand the DCI touring-corps life--once again my opinion.

Does this mean I look down at senoir and alumni corps--NO, but you have to say that these are different experiences form my own.

Do I look down at the fans-NO-understand though that I see things through the eyes of a person who has given his quite a bit of his life (like it or not GM) to touring level junior corps.

I respect your opinions (well , most of 'em anyway) but they are just that, your opinions!!. As my signature states,you know what they say about opinions.

Believe me--I am a fan of this activity back to its roots. I just think that it is ever-evolving, and I really like it in its current form. I also think that it will head in the right direction. If something really is that bad within the corps idiom, it will not be greatly embraced.

There you go..think about it.

I wasn't directing that to you Marcus.

I marched juniors too. For a long time.

I like senior and alumni corps but I actually prefer to be around juniors.

And that's all I'm planning on doing next year.

Terri-

I realised that after I posted..oops

In reality, my comments directed to everyone

My apologies :)

But I do mean what I said!!

Edited May 1, 2003 by bigdaddy

[GMichael1230]

Where did I say that no-one is entitled to their own opinions??

I simply inferred that mine were formed by years of experience in the Junior level, and that I have a problem with those who berate the junior level without having marched, sweatted, and experienced first hand the DCI touring-corps life--once again my opinion.

Does this mean I look down at senoir and alumni corps--NO, but you have to say that these are different experiences form my own.

Do I look down at the fans-NO-understand though that I see things through the eyes of a person who has given his quite a bit of his life (like it or not GM) to touring level junior corps.

I respect your opinions (well , most of 'em anyway) but they are just that, your opinions!!. As my signature states,you know what they say about opinions.

Believe me--I am a fan of this activity back to its roots. I just think that it is ever-evolving, and I really like it in its current form. I also think that it will head in the right direction. If something really is that bad within the corps idiom, it will not be greatly embraced.

There you go..think about it.

Well, when you decide to come down off of your high horse, you could put it back in your pants ! For all your drum corps experience, it sure hasn't taught you humility or modesty..and quite frankly, for all of your prime experience, theres dozens here that that could send you packing with your tail between your legs with the depth of their experinces......ok, you marched....so did most of us. Some of us won rings, made the telecast, won captions...etc...etc...etc......

So why should your experience mean that much more than ours ???????

Im waiting for an answer and am looking forward to your belitllement...it's that predictable.

~G~

[bigdaddy]

Where did I say that no-one is entitled to their own opinions??

I simply inferred that mine were formed by years of experience in the Junior level, and that I have a problem with those who berate the junior level without having marched, sweatted, and experienced first hand  the DCI touring-corps life--once again my opinion.

Does this mean I look down at senoir and alumni corps--NO, but you have to say that these are different experiences form my own.

Do I look down at the fans-NO-understand though that I see things through the eyes of a person who has given his quite a bit of his life (like it or not GM) to touring level junior corps.

I respect your opinions (well , most of 'em anyway) but they are just that, your opinions!!. As my signature states,you know what they say about opinions.

Believe me--I am a fan of this activity back to its roots.  I just think that it is ever-evolving, and I really like it in its current form.  I also think that it will head in the right direction.  If something really is that bad within the corps idiom, it will not be greatly embraced.

There you go..think about it.

Well, when you decide to come down off of your high horse, you could put it back in your pants ! For all your drum corps experience, it sure hasn't taught you humility or modesty..and quite frankly, for all of your prime experience, theres dozens here that that could send you packing with your tail between your legs with the depth of their experinces......ok, you marched....so did most of us. Some of us won rings, made the telecast, won captions...etc...etc...etc......

So why should your experience mean that much more than ours ???????

Im waiting for an answer and am looking forward to your belitllement...it's that predictable.

~G~

No I will not stoop to that..despite the fact that your words are both slanderous and insulting, I will leave this matter to the moderators of this forum--you can be sure of that. :(

I have simply stated what has affected my view of drumcorps. I do not pretend to know the experiences of the other posters on this forum. I am sure though that what I have done for the last 15 years of my life make me as qualified as them to comment on this open forum..I need neither your permission or nor your approval. Never have I stated that my experience is superior to anyones.

You seem to take offense at anything that may be contrary to your opinion or ideals of what corps or colorguard should be..that is fine..but understand that I will defend my beliefs and experiences also.

Understand me when I say my corps experience has taught me both humility and modesty..hey, I never marched even in a championship corps..but.. 15 years of the drumcorps lifestyle have taught me how about life, including how to be both humble and modest..Read my posts..I do not put down the experiences of others, I state that they are simply different from my own.

Remember though..I will defend my opinions on this forum. If this makes me immodest or arrogant in your eyes, then so be it..I won't lose any sleep over it

If you have won rings, titles or medals, then my congrats B)

Love always..M

Edited May 2, 2003 by bigdaddy

[wheelerand]

Well, if there is anything that the posts on this topic prove, it is that this topic will NOT be the "end to the color guard controversy". There are always going to be opinions about what works best in a guard show. I'm more of a traditionalist myself, with an experience similar to RobH's - marched in HS 20+ years ago and just discovered drum corps as a fan two summers ago. So, like Rob, I'm still adjusting to drum corps the way it is today - and guard is not the only piece in which that is the case, although it's probably the most obvious one.

Let me make a couple of observations. With some exceptions, most of us who prefer traditional guard work are not berating anyone about the way guard shows are designed today. There is no implication about how hard guards are working or how talented they are compared with guards of yesteryear. And, in my case at least, there is no implied statement about precision or lack of it - as far as I can see, you can have precision in dance just like you can have precision in equipment work. Either one can be done well or done badly.

Similarly, I don't believe that those who are in the more "modernist" camp USUALLY look down on the guards of the past as being boring or less athletic or anything like that.

This is not a debate, IMO, over which guards are "better", as if that could be decided by a bunch of people's opinions. There is no objective or subjective measure by which such a statement can be made. This is a debate over what we like to see. I'm guessing - just guessing, mind you - that most people in this debate never marched in a color guard. Heck, some of us never marched drum corps at all. That's no reason not to have preferences in the type of work that is being done.

Some of us in this debate "like what we like because we like it", period. Well and good. Others have thought through some of the reasons for what they like and what they don't. I belong to the second camp. But just because we have reasons for what we like and what we don't doesn't make one side right and another side wrong - it just means we've thought through the issues and have come to a conclusion.

So, here's my two cents worth. I prefer mostly equipment work because I believe it is more easily seen from the stands. I also believe that it is more impactful (when done well, of course) than dance work tends to be. This is not to say it is more DIFFICULT - I'm just saying that from this fan's perspective, a unison rifle toss and catch - ala Phantom's opening guard drill last year - is much more impactful than a dance move done with the same level of precision. I'm not against all dance - and that's an opinion that has evolved in the last two years, so yes, I am capable of being open-minded (I just don't practice it often...). But in general, I believe that equipment work is better suited to a venue where the audience is some distance away. Dance works well in winter guard, where the audience is much closer; but IMO, it loses much of its impact on a football field, especially if you're in the upper deck at Finals.

Also, I tend to prefer equipment work precisely BECAUSE it tends to be designed to be done in unison. Generally, when there is a flag or rifle toss, you know that the expectation is that they all come down at the same time, pointing the same way, etc. (except for some special effects, like waves, of course). My problem with much of the dance work that I see is not simply that it is dance work, it is that it is often not DESIGNED to be in unison. You could look at a group of guard members and never know whether a given one was doing it right or wrong, because each one is doing something different. To me, this is the biggest problem with dance. It's not inherently that way, it just seems to usually be designed that way. As I've said elsewhere, to me this makes for a disjointed show and one where the guard tends to distract from the show rather than contributing to it.

I do think that - overall - equipment work tends to support the overall show better than dance. Most shows that I've seen in the last two years, if they have a lot of dance in them, seem to come off as two separate shows - one being done by the corps and a completely different one being done by the guard. I cannot tell if that's the intent or not, but I do know I don't like it. I prefer to see one show with all the elements contributing to it. I don't think it's impossible to do that with dance, I just haven't seen it done very often.

Arguments about what the kids LIKE to do are irrelevant to discussions about which type of work fans prefer, IMO. And there's a danger in those arguments, also. Performers in general have certain restrictions put on the types of stuff they can do. Actors have lines, and they need to say those lines whether or not there are other lines they'd PREFER to say. A horn member needs to play the horn he/she is assigned to play, not another horn that they LIKE better. I do agree that the kids should enjoy what they are doing, but I have yet to be convinced - from an outsider's point of view, mind you - that CG members in general like to dance and hate to do equipment work. I suppose there are guard members who prefer dance and there are those who prefer equipment. There are probably lots of them who like both and enjoy performing a balance. No problem with that. But let's remember: this is not an individual activity. This is a team activity. The kids - whether CG members or any other section - need to be about doing what's best for the show, best for the corps, not about doing what each one WANTS to do out on the field.

So, bottom line, no, there won't be an end to this debate. There will always be those who prefer one type of guard work or another. As Rob put it so well, I'm still learning to like much of what I see. For me, the overall experience of being at a show and watching the corps perform makes it worth the work to try to understand different types of shows, including different types of guard work. I'll always have my preferences, of course, but I for one will not berate one type of guard work in favor of another. And I think that's the position that MOST (not all, of course) people have in this debate. To prefer one thing is not necessarily to detest or disrespect another.

--Andrew

[RobH]

Sally?

G?

Terri?

I'm thinking Andrew's a KEEPER!!!

:)

Edited May 2, 2003 by RobH

[TerriDitt57]

Sally?

G?

Terri?

I'm thinking Andrew's a KEEPER!!!

:)

Well I'm an Andrew Wheeler fan cuz he loved Cap Sound's classic rock show last year!

And I met him at Sun Prairie!

[MikeD]

Well, if there is anything that the posts on this topic prove, it is that this topic will NOT be the "end to the color guard controversy". There are always going to be opinions about what works best in a guard show.

I guess my overriding problem with these sorts of topics is the idea that there is a single bestest way to do anything.

I love the older style guard. One of my all time favre indoor guards is a guard fro mthe late 70's/early 80's, the NY Royal Guardsmen. Incredible equipment work, IMO as a non-specialist in guard.

I also have always loved the PR guard, as far back as I can remember. Total class and elegance.

However, my favorites the past few seasons have been the BD of 2001 and 2002, and the Cadets of the same period. Also loved Crown in 2001, tires and all.

I think there are as many ways to do something well as there are guards.

Just MHO...

Mike

[deftguy]

Andrew,

That was very well said and I agree wholeheartedly to EXACTLY what you said. I have been saying the same things in just about every post I have done on this subject. Dance is great where it is visually effective, and can most accent the music. That means WGI and not DCI. I aged out in 86 but continued to teach and have watched this evolution(as one describes it) from emphasis on equipment, to the body. I have watched the effective blending of WGI and DCI when it pertains to colorguard. I saw it coming when instructors found out how easy it was to feature people doing different things rather than cleaning something done in unison. If all of the guard members are doing different moves, then there is no right or wrong. Its free form

I am not knocking what they do today that would be silly and pointless. But I have to admit that it is very distracting to watch because there is no visual logic to it. Its just like you stated, its like watching two different shows taking place simultaneously. Last year I saw the Cavaliers do something that actually caught my eye. Everyone was on the same page. It looked like one show and not two! I had not seen that in years.

Well said and I raise a glass to you man