byline Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Precision and cleanliness should be timeless. Wow . . . what he said. yes, and in many cases it is. the problem is that some people look more at the dance and body and stop looking at the guard work that accompanies it. Maybe that's true for some folks, but not for me. The thing is, equipment work is what I know far better than dance, so that's where my eyes are. And that's where I see some problems in terms of consistency in timing, hand/body/feet and equipment placement, etc. Not with every guard or every move, to be sure. But it happens often enough that I find it troublesome because it seems as if a basic element of guard performance--execution of equipment work--is not getting the attention it deserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffsjetta Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 as LLMM said, it's easy for spectators to make comments. but in reality it is only the people who have done both aspects of guard who can truly make comments on it. it is not remotely possible to make a true judgment call otherwise. but the spectators pay to see it, and when more and more spectators are unhappy, you have less people to perform for. I dunno about you, but performing to no one sucks. and this applies to all the disciplines, not just guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BennyASU Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 i am far from a guard expert, but besdies the DH, what really has changed about baseball?um...lets see...9 players....9 innings....world series......#### not much. i used to follow guards closely, especially at the local indoor level...the tosses fascinated me, and some dance was ok. now when i go i wade thru the dance to see some tosses......and i am bored to tears. oh man....so much. you may think its insignificant, but it has huge impacts. Teams have moved, changed leagues, many players back then were overweight, today they are all RIPPED on whatever, strategies have changed, its shifted from a pitchers game to a batters game, the fences have slowly moved closer and closer...etc.... A lot of the time change is so gradual that you dont notice it happening. Like why my best friend looks the same to me today as he did 7 years ago when we were freshmen. It does happen though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobH Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 (edited) Lots of excellent points made here - by people who KNOW THEIR GUARD! A couple additional points: 1. I don't want to be lumped into that group that is the "Old School is the ONLY WAY" stereotype - yes, I came from the Old School, but it's incorrect to assume that ALL Old Schoolers think that the Old Way is the ONLY way - clearly it's NOT! 2. Old Schoolers like me are simply TRYING TO UNDERSTAND what the guard does today and how it got to where it is today over the years - to complement the music, to create a visual story/pattern/accompaniment to the show, and I for one STILL don't know how guards are judged wrt execution, scores, penalties, deductions, etc. I believe it's a great activity and adds so very much to the overall show, I just want to UNDERSTAND what to look at when watching the guard in the show!! I believe for many who USED to attend shows, that THIS is the real reason they don't anymore - they don't UNDERSTAND what it is that the guard is doing, or what today's guard is all about. .............maybe I just need a girlfriend in guard............ Edited April 23, 2003 by RobH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malibu Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I graduated high school in the mid 80's. The last year I did winterguard, we were putting more movement into our show, but we always had clean execution of all our equipment work.4 years ago, I got back into instructing a guard. We got KILLED on our scores for our first year of winterguard last year. We did tons of spins and tosses and lots and lots of equipment work, but we didn't have enough BODY MOVEMENT. Me and the judges went around and around. The guards that were beating us couldnt do more than 8 spins in a row but they were dancing all over the place like it was a ballet. This is what upsets me the most about the direction of guard. (I know, my age is showing...) When you have guards who don't know how to do basic rifle spins, left and right handed, crossovers, MF's, I wonder, are we no longer a guard and just a dance team with equipment???? Most shows are dance, some spins, dance dance, big toss, dance dance, go behind scenery, dance, toss, dance, spin, go behind scenery, toss, go behind scenery, big toss, lay down on floor, roll on floor, go behind scenery, you get the picture.. Quit running around, show me what you can do with that piece of wood or metal that's in your hand!!! Ok, I feel better now, I'll get off my soapbox.. :P Yep, I know exactly how you feel! As an indoor guard judge, I have witnessed many guards beating guards by doing little or nothing with their equipment. For example one guard in the Regional A division ran around the floor "holding" their flag up in the air for 32 counts....they did that move twice in their show. Whenever they did do work, the vocabulary was very weak........very "fluff." BECAUSE they had a lot body movements they were awarded a higher score. Like you said, the guard that had the higher score, was not better on equipment work, they couldn't do a single toss together on rifle or flag. There should be a balance somewhere........dance or "movement" should not be the deciding factor of a guards placement, but sadly it is and is being done today. my 3¢ (inflation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBrancheau Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Okay, time for me to jump in now! I'm not completely against what guards are doing now. I admire that they have strong dance ability and that their bodies are incredible and that they are executing a difficult visual book. But... Where's the equipment work? Why use costumes? Why have all the clutter on the floor or the field? Why do you need visuals to tell the story or interpret the music? By using uniforms, paring down the myriad of flag changes, eliminating the use of props serves one purpose: to showcase the equipment work as a means of providing a visual picture of the aural picture that the music is painting. All the clutter and theatrics does is detract from the ultimate goal: interpreting the music. And isn't that what guard is supposed to do? I also did the "pile driving" of marking time while spinning, etc. But thank God we had a choreographer who did incorporate arms and hands and some dance into our visual book. But, while this was important, it wasn't the do-all, be-all, end-all of the modern universe. The equipment work and its cleanliness WAS. I thank her for that. She instilled in me a desire to interpret the music to the best of my ability and be able to break the routine down and clean it. I want to see guards rely less on props and dance and more on the equipment work to visually interpret the music. That, distilled down, is what I want to see when I go to a drum corps show, marching band contest or guard contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaLisaMoMeesa Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 i am far from a guard expert, but besdies the DH, what really has changed about baseball?um...lets see...9 players....9 innings....world series......#### not much. i used to follow guards closely, especially at the local indoor level...the tosses fascinated me, and some dance was ok. now when i go i wade thru the dance to see some tosses......and i am bored to tears. Well, Jeff, if we were to apply an old school drum corps person's argument towards baseball, we would whine and #### and moan about how the uniforms have changed and are now skin tight. (One of the reasons they went to tighter uniforms was to make it harder to tag somone out.) We could whine and #### and moan about ticket prices, salaries that the players get paid, how some players are held up as heros but are really adulterous drug addicted evil doers but it's ok because they are a part of EVERYONE (see, we can even work a catherine burr agrument into this) and how baseballl stopped being baseball once they started playing under the lights. So there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaLisaMoMeesa Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 but the spectators pay to see it, and when more and more spectators are unhappy, you have less people to perform for. I dunno about you, but performing to no one sucks.and this applies to all the disciplines, not just guard. Well I don't know about you, Jeff, but every year the seating at WGI gets tighter and tighter. Same venue. Hmmm..... mabye people are just getting fatter and fatter.....but I doubt it. What i can't understand about the ###### off and bitter old school is if they hate the product so much, why..whaaaaaaayyyyyyy do they keep coming back? I liken it to the old addage patient to doctor: "Dr., it hurts when I go like this" ::Bends arm at the elbow Doctor to patient: "Well....don't go like that". duhh..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffsjetta Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 but the spectators pay to see it, and when more and more spectators are unhappy, you have less people to perform for. I dunno about you, but performing to no one sucks. and this applies to all the disciplines, not just guard. Well I don't know about you, Jeff, but every year the seating at WGI gets tighter and tighter. Same venue. Hmmm..... mabye people are just getting fatter and fatter.....but I doubt it. What i can't understand about the ###### off and bitter old school is if they hate the product so much, why..whaaaaaaayyyyyyy do they keep coming back? I liken it to the old addage patient to doctor: "Dr., it hurts when I go like this" ::Bends arm at the elbow Doctor to patient: "Well....don't go like that". duhh..... however, while WGI grows, DCI shrinks. so there is a tradeoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaLisaMoMeesa Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 but the spectators pay to see it, and when more and more spectators are unhappy, you have less people to perform for. I dunno about you, but performing to no one sucks. and this applies to all the disciplines, not just guard. Well I don't know about you, Jeff, but every year the seating at WGI gets tighter and tighter. Same venue. Hmmm..... mabye people are just getting fatter and fatter.....but I doubt it. What i can't understand about the ###### off and bitter old school is if they hate the product so much, why..whaaaaaaayyyyyyy do they keep coming back? I liken it to the old addage patient to doctor: "Dr., it hurts when I go like this" ::Bends arm at the elbow Doctor to patient: "Well....don't go like that". duhh..... however, while WGI grows, DCI shrinks. so there is a tradeoff. so based on your statement, can we say then that if DCI is shrinking, it's not solely the fault of the "new school guard". ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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