Man ! They got that one wrong !

[Bushsop89]

Everyone blames the percussion judges for what happened in 1996. The brass judges scores is where you should look.

And Keith, sorry about 1990, but the brass line that won that trophy was pristine, and won a few trophies that year and many to follow. BTW I voted for 1990 as being a travesty. Not for Keith's reasons obviously.

If Dave would have put 1996 in this poll, IMHO it would be a run away, sorry Jeff.

Donny

I added 1996.

As for 1989 and 1990, I am fairly certain that Bush was the beneficiary of a "no tie rule," that was in effect at the time. Apparently both of those finals' scores yielded a tie. Because of the 0.10 addition, which came down to, I believe the total number of captions won, the tie was broken....two years in a row. First with Sun in 89 and then Empire in 90.

Does anyone know when they did away with that rule, and why?

Edited February 22, 2009 by Bushsop89

[FPonzo]

Everyone blames the percussion judges for what happened in 1996. The brass judges scores is where you should look.

And Keith, sorry about 1990, but the brass line that won that trophy was pristine, and won a few trophies that year and many to follow. BTW I voted for 1990 as being a travesty. Not for Keith's reasons obviously.

If Dave would have put 1996 in this poll, IMHO it would be a run away, sorry Jeff.

Donny

First of all. we (Cabs) won Prelims in 96 by 9 tenths.....not 1+ points.

Second, I wholeheartedly agree with Donnie. Don't blame the percussion judge that trashed us by 7 tenths in finals, blame the horn judges that year that didn't have the balls to place more of a spread between us and Westshoremen. No offense to Westshore, but as your drumline was more superior to ours, our hornline was more superior to yours.

I can also blame the visual judges for not giving more of a spread too!

[FPonzo]

I added 1996.

As for 1989 and 1990, I am fairly certain that Bush was the beneficiary of a "no tie rule," that was in effect at the time. Apparently both of those finals' scores yielded a tie. Because of the 0.10 addition, which came down to, I believe the total number of captions won, the tie was broken....two years in a row. First with Sun in 89 and then Empire in 90.

Does anyone know when they did away with that rule, and why?

Ok...so here's the story as I understood it.....

In 1989, the rules congress took place in January. It was put to the powers that be, presented by the Sunrisers, that if there were a tie at any show, the corps who won Color Guard would win the show. (Since at the time, Color Guard was not actually part of the scoring, and was considered one of those "bonus" awards). This was brought about because board of directors from the Sunrisers were unhappy with the "tie" in 1988. SO.......the rule was accepted at the rules congress for the 1989 season. This rule would be in place for a total of 2 years.

Well...as fate would have it, there was in fact another "tie" in 1989, and the deciding factor was the corps who won the guard trophy, which happened to be the Bushwackers in 1989. Unfortuantely, a rule that was voted on, proposed by the Sunrisers, bit them in the azz.

I'll tell you what........that really sucked that year for us. I had no problem with the tie in 88. As a matter of fact, I do not see any problems with ties at all. To me, instead of 128 people being world champs, there are 256! Good for all of them. They all worked hard, and I am sure both corps felt like they deserved it!

I can say I was a proud member of the Sunrisers during both of those years. And I for one would have been ok being a world champ again in 89, right there along with Bush.

Edited February 22, 2009 by FPonzo

[cabalumnidrummer]

Frank Ponzo said:

"I had no problem with the tie in 88. As a matter of fact, I do not see any problems with ties at all. To me, instead of 128 people being world champs, there are 256! Good for all of them. They all worked hard, and I am sure both corps felt like they deserved it!

I can say I was a proud member of the Sunrisers during both of those years. And I for one would have been ok being a world champ again in 89, right there along with Bush."

You know, Frank, I had never really been happy about ties in the past. I always felt there was more 'satisfaction' with a single, clear-cut champion. However, you're argument is valid, and I can see how a tie is not such a bad thing after all. I'm sure that additional shared title would be just as special to you all these years later.

Oh, and for the record, I initially voted for 1977, (sorry!) but if 1996 had been included, that would have been my choice. Really surprised at the reaction to 2003. Guess there are a lot of Brigs fans on here, or maybe it's because it's just he most recent.

[overthehillDM]

Ok...so here's the story as I understood it.....

In 1989, the rules congress took place in January. It was put to the powers that be, presented by the Sunrisers, that if there were a tie at any show, the corps who won Color Guard would win the show. (Since at the time, Color Guard was not actually part of the scoring, and was considered one of those "bonus" awards). This was brought about because board of directors from the Sunrisers were unhappy with the "tie" in 1988. SO.......the rule was accepted at the rules congress for the 1989 season. This rule would be in place for a total of 2 years.

Well...as fate would have it, there was in fact another "tie" in 1989, and the deciding factor was the corps who won the guard trophy, which happened to be the Bushwackers in 1989. Unfortuantely, a rule that was voted on, proposed by the Sunrisers, bit them in the azz.

I'll tell you what........that really sucked that year for us. I had no problem with the tie in 88. As a matter of fact, I do not see any problems with ties at all.

To me, instead of 128 people being world champs, there are 256! Good for all of them. They all worked hard, and I am sure both corps felt like they deserved it!

I can say I was a proud member of the Sunrisers during both of those years. And I for one would have been ok being a world champ again in 89, right there along with Bush.

(bold type mine)

I agree with you, Frank!

I was a proud member of Bushwackers during both of those years, and I am happy to have been a world champ, also!

Both corps were excellent! I will never forget our first show in Montclair, NJ, 1988 with only 17 horns! We put on quite a show, and had only one contra player! (on loan from the mello section!) Great job...Laurie N!!!

To end in a tie with the Sunrisers was just amazing!!!

[Fran Haring]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the one-tenth spread in 1990 was a "legit" one tenth....no tiebreaker was used. In other words, Bush topped Statesmen by a tenth...there was no tie to break.

As for some of the other years in the poll.... the less I say, the better.

Fran

[Rap48]

How the tie was broken!!(1999)

I was the judge co-ordinator and I sat between Jay(Bush) and Matt (Sun). There was a list of procedures to go through to break a tie. We sat at the table and worked our way through each tie breaker. The winner of the Guard sheet ( Guard didn't have a pt value in total score) was the last tie breaker.

I don't remember the list of breakers but I think the first was who won most Captions and that was a tie. Any way there was a long involved system, with at least 3 other tie breakers. Again Guard was the last tie breaker.

I don't remember who put the system in. I know I didn't want it, because if two deserve to tie so be it. I remember Frank G of the Cabs being active in the tie breaker system, but don't remember who proposed it.

Fran is corect about 1990.

As I said earlier in the thread there were no mistakes in Judging from 88-92!!!

Edited February 22, 2009 by Rap48

[cabsbaritone]

can I now go back and change my vote since you added 96!

[Jeff Ream]

Everyone blames the percussion judges for what happened in 1996. The brass judges scores is where you should look.

And Keith, sorry about 1990, but the brass line that won that trophy was pristine, and won a few trophies that year and many to follow. BTW I voted for 1990 as being a travesty. Not for Keith's reasons obviously.

If Dave would have put 1996 in this poll, IMHO it would be a run away, sorry Jeff.

Donny

understand entirely Donny. it doesn't change anything, but I do understand. if I ever had doubts on a field on any given night, it was that one

[Kay]

can I now go back and change my vote since you added 96!