Will any World Class Corps ever go back to G bugles?

[qwerty543]

Yeah, that worked.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic? I know you basically **** your pants for G bugles though. I know who you are!

[ContraFart]

Here's another question I have:

For G horns, were they all transposing instruments, or were the sopranos and mellos transposing and the low brass were concert key and had to learn a different fingering system? For those who don't know.... the way it is now... trumpets, baris and tubas are all pitched in Bb.... where if they play their first harmonic with no valves pushed down, the note Bb will sound... The low brass are concert instruments and would actually call that note a Bb, but the trumpets are transposing instruments, so they call that note their "C." How was it with "G" lines?

Many arrangers for G bugles had their scores in G. Also all the parts would be in treble clef. This would mean that a C below the staff would be a second partial open note on all the instruments in the corps. So in theory nobody was transposing. There were low brass players who did not read treble clef that needed bass clef parts, but the transposition was what you would see in the baritone TC and BC parts in middle school band music. (where second line b flat would be the second partial open note). pretty simple.

What I would like to see as a Tuba player is Contras in C. I know the sound is slightly brighter, but it has tons more clarity, and much better response. Sure you would have to teach different fingerings, but serious tuba players are going to have to make the switch on concert horns eventually. I just think it would allow arrangers to write better parts, and have that voice speak more clearly.

By the way Crowns Tuba section ROCKS!!!

[JayM]

Here's another question I have:

For G horns, were they all transposing instruments, or were the sopranos and mellos transposing and the low brass were concert key and had to learn a different fingering system? For those who don't know.... the way it is now... trumpets, baris and tubas are all pitched in Bb.... where if they play their first harmonic with no valves pushed down, the note Bb will sound... The low brass are concert instruments and would actually call that note a Bb, but the trumpets are transposing instruments, so they call that note their "C." How was it with "G" lines?

Minor nitpick, but I wouldn't call the low brass "concert instruments". They are Bb instruments that just happen to read in concert pitch, because bass clef always sounds exactly as it is written (the exception being the double bass, which reads down an octave).

And as far as I know, G bugle music was written in treble clef for all instruments, using standard fingerings (open is C G C E G C, etc.). So, were the marching french horns of the time in G, but keyed an octave lower than the sops and mellos?

Now in the 10th year of the switch (gosh I'm old!), I think it was the right decision. Who can say whether or not this is a direct result of the switch, but IMO, hornline musicality is at a much higher level across the board than it was on the G horns. However, I sometimes think we should consider building a special field trumpet, with inspiration from the old G soprano. There are some phenomenal trumpet lines out there these days, putting out a great quality of sound, but it lacks the thickness of the G sops. Listen to Madison's '95 soprano line if you want to hear what I'm talking about (like I have to tell anyone here to listen to Madison 95 ).

[atlvalet]

Listen to Madison's '95 soprano line if you want to hear what I'm talking about (like I have to tell anyone here to listen to Madison 95 ).

Funny, that's playing on iTunes as I type this :)

People at work hate me lol

[Hrothgar15]

However, I sometimes think we should consider building a special field trumpet, with inspiration from the old G soprano.

I'll do you one better: why not use an actual G soprano? Already built, still being built, ready for use.

[Dr.Mickey]

The low brass in use in todays drum corps is keyed in Bb. The mello is the oddman out in the key of F. But as a mello player and enthusiast I can tell you this is for the better. The mello is now a true middle voice in the ensemble. The mello in G is really more of a big-belled, more intonationally challenged soprano bugle playing more of less in the same voicing as the 2nd 3rd sopranos. It was fun to play, lighter and livelier then the mello in F, but could easily become a 'laser-phone' when pushed to hard. We were constantly battling to keep it dark and more 'french horn-like'. The mello in F sits nicely in the middle and can even somewhat cover that darker french horn like timbre as well as cut through and sing when needed.

The soprano vs. trumpet is the most obvious difference in the sound of todays lines. The soprano bugles I have measured are not dramatically more conical then the average trumpet. The bell tapers and flares are the main difference aside from the obvious overall length difference. In theory one could build a more 'soprano-like' trumpet. Kanstul makes a large-bore 'Colosseum' trumpet in their marching line but as far as I can tell it is more or less a large bore trumpet with an extra large bell, still more trumpet than soprano. I am thinking something along the lines of a long or American style cornet with a big bore and different bell flare. I wonder if something along those lines might produce a little soprano-like sound? I wonder if the business case for a 'Bb Field Soprano' could be made? The cornet (ie. the 'C' word in trumpet-speak) is rather unloved in this country, but can produce a wonderful dark and lyrical sound.

Great post. Thanks especially for describing the bit about the mellos. Well done.

[audiodb]

Didn't G Bugles sound ridiculously bad and out of tune? I'm sure you can get the "raw power" from them though.

Sounds like you never heard a good G hornline. Is that why you're asking?

And yes, the difference was that they were keyed in G... but that isn't the only difference. The way they were made was very different too.

If you're tracing back to the 1960s, OK. The three-valve bugles, however, were very similar to their band counterparts.

Time has passed and horn makers now have really fine tuned (ok to the best of their ability :P ) marching instruments... and of course, to appeal to the REST OF THE WORLD, they changed keys of the marching instruments.

OK, you lost me there. Manufacturers have been making marching brass in both G and Bb/F for as long as I've been alive. When was this change you refer to?

This made converting from the concert setting to the marching setting a lot easier. Not having to learn a different set of fingerings, not having to play the instrument a little different, etc.

The "fingerings" are the same....only the key is different. And every instrument needs to be played a little differently for best results - that applies even among different models of the same keyed horn.

Since then, corps have taken advantage of the Bb (and F) instruments because they are more finely tuned and there is better craftsmanship.

That is just silly. The same craftsmen made horns in both G and Bb/F. Their manufacturing standards and quality are essentially equivalent.

Edit: Also, corps take advantage of how much more it is in tune.

Are you kidding?

There is no inherent intonation advantage to Bb/F. If anything, they are harder to tune as an ensemble due to the clash of F middle horn tendencies vs. those of the Bb brass voices.

Sound waves that are the same frequency (in tune) will amplify the sound... making it sound louder as opposed to just being loud, which G bugles were very good at.

That is mythology. No marching brass section achieves this theoretical effect in practice.

[kevingamin]

And as far as I know, G bugle music was written in treble clef for all instruments, using standard fingerings (open is C G C E G C, etc.). So, were the marching french horns of the time in G, but keyed an octave lower than the sops and mellos?

G French horns and baritones have a similar length of tubing. The French horns, however, would play an octave above the baris, which is why it's so #### hard to play a G French horn bugle. You're playing up where the partials are VERY close together and fingerings start to become optional.

Basically, it broke down like this:

Sopranos - Obviously, the "trumpet" voice of a G horn line

Mellophones - Same octave as the soprano in a G horn line, but serves more as a faux alto voice. The "viola" voice of a G horn line.

French Horns - See above

Baritones - The sopranos of the low brass section, minus the ego.

Euphoniums - The mellophones of the low brass section, minus the insane 16th note runs. Also conveniently long enough for me to rest on my chest without losing posture if my arms got tired.

Contrabasses - I think you can figure this one out.

There were other horns that came into play (literally) - Tromboniums, anybody?

[Kansan]

$$$$$$

The cost to completely outfit a new hornline is pretty expensive. I would bet most corps replace section at a time (this year mellos, next year trumpets, following year tubas, etc); if they had to go back to G only it would be very costly.

Plus, some popular manufacturers don't make G bugles. For example, all of the Yamaha corps would have to forsake their Yamaha sponsorship and find another brass sponsor.

I know for the big dogs they would get the right deal and a switch wouldn't be that big of a deal, but most corps would not.

Also, IMO, there is WAY more parity in the brass caption now (since the any key switch), than there was during G. I don't think there are so many more high level players, I just think it's easier to tune/teach on any key (no pesky new fingerings for rookies to learn).

Again, this is just what I've been told from brass players/teachers in the activity; I'm a percussionist and don't have any experience playing G bugles or any key horns in drum corps.

It wouldnm't be any more costly than the horns their playing now. With the Deals they get in terms of contracts on new horns, a coprs could use the Bugles for two years and then pass them on the the Alumni Projects, Alumni Corps and some Senior Corps.

There are more companies that make band brass and that means DCI can get more sponsorship money. Can't really blame them as Drum Corps is not really a money maker but a money consumer.

[whitedawn]

What is your experience with G bugles versus "musical instruments?"

i won a (then) division i world championship on bugles and one on Bb horns.

the Bb horns do what you expect them to.

bugles play like concert horns bathed in molasses and then stuffed with a t-shirt in the bell. bugles are also much easier to overblow, spread, etc.