oldschooldbc Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Holy crap....Diogenes of Sinope has found one! Well put! Favor with "the crowd" is fleeting (and in some cases depends on the venue)....and as PR found out this year, it certainly won't carry you if you don't bring it. CC has favor with most of DCI at the moment, but consistency is VERY HARD to maintain, year after year. They also have a great deal of "expectation" foisted on them and the pressure is on! 2010 will be a watershed year for the activity in that nuance and innovation (both musically and visually) will lead the way (IMO). It will be made even more interesting with the emergence of the new Madison design team and the realization that velocity drill just isn't enough to win titles anymore. Diogenes of Sinope is said to have walked through the streets on Athens carrying a lamp in the daytime, claiming to be looking for an honest man. True. High velocity drill is not enough to win a title. It never ways, and never will be. What is needed is clean drill. BD's drill this year was as clean as the sheets at Buckingham Palace. By contrast, I was realy shocked to see some of the visual problems in CC's show this year, particularly with carriage and footwork. Until that is fixed, CC won't bring home a championship. I saw a post by a Madison apologist, where he did a mathematical exercise. He added up the total number of beats in Madison's show, and the average tempo of the show as well. Madison's show was much faster than those of its closest competitors (Colts, Academy etc.) That apologist doesn't get it. If a show is fast and sloppy, it will always be judged lower than a show that is slower and clean. Now you can pick up visual GE points, if your show is fast, dynamic, engaging, and is well-coordinated with the music book. But if your execution is sloppy, you will likely lose points in the execution caps - and there will be no net gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvertrombone Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 True. High velocity drill is not enough to win a title. It never ways, and never will be. What is needed is clean drill. BD's drill this year was as clean as the sheets at Buckingham Palace. By contrast, I was realy shocked to see some of the visual problems in CC's show this year, particularly with carriage and footwork. Until that is fixed, CC won't bring home a championship. I saw a post by a Madison apologist, where he did a mathematical exercise. He added up the total number of beats in Madison's show, and the average tempo of the show as well. Madison's show was much faster than those of its closest competitors (Colts, Academy etc.) That apologist doesn't get it. If a show is fast and sloppy, it will always be judged lower than a show that is slower and clean. Now you can pick up visual GE points, if your show is fast, dynamic, engaging, and is well-coordinated with the music book. But if your execution is sloppy, you will likely lose points in the execution caps - and there will be no net gain. Hey Tim. Phantom seems to get the formula every other year...just the right amount of difficulty, but not too much. Devs have mastered that recently...0.05 in 2008 and a 3-way toss-up in 2006 from 4-in-a-row is incredible in anyone's book! Cavies had it down 2000-2006. Madison...sorry, not on the same planet right now. Beats per minute don't matter when your product ain't at the same level. Clean feet, drill, notes, etc THEN we'll talk. Does Madison get into top 3 in a few years? If they do like DVD tells 'em, maybe...awfully crowded top 3 right now. If so, I wouldn't expect it for 5 years or more, if ever...when was last time? 88?? Crown is a crowd favorite and a certifiable elite now...except for BD's achievement this year, they would have been a contender, too. Devs were just on a different plane. Next year will be REALLY fun to see! Enjoy the crowd, corps--it's a BLAST getting that cheer when you're announced! And if DVD & Co. keep turning out entertaining, crowd-centric shows they will do well with the fans just like Phantom does. Pull a Hopkins and do something like 2005-2008 Cadets and...well, this isn't a Cadets thread! Always a crowd favorite? That takes a lot of effort. First is commitment to being the best. Best staff possible. Best talent possible. Best shows possible. etc. But every now and then a Cavies 2007 happens and two other corps just come out with superior talent and product and you bump down a little lower than you'd like. Or a 2007/8 Cadets happens when you put out something...well, different. Or a 2009 Phantom happens and...well whatever that was happens! The best analogy I can provide is actually non-drum corps entirely. I really, really, really like the Dallas Cowboys pre-Jerry Jones. Everyone had a job and nobody's responsibilities overlapped. Scouting Department scouted...coaches coached...GM managed...players played. And the organization had an unprecedented level of achievement rarely matched in major sports. 5 Super Bowl appearances. 2 wins. 20 years (number??) of winning seasons in a row. Who knows how many division championships. Top down, that organization knew what it was doing. Key point JJ has yet to learn...owners were never directly involved other than writing the checks. Without knowing the inner workings of Crown I cannot comment on all of the captions and "departments." But the results they have on the field show me that they have it together in the back office. They are set up well for a long run of successes, no matter what the numbers work out to be. Remember, VK was always a fan favorite, but never challenged SCV or BD...ever. Just put a good show out there and keep playing "my" music and you'll have a fan for life here in Dallas! I suspect in a lot of other places, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamMan Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Crown is a crowd favorite and a certifiable elite now... Elite? I don't know. It's a very broad term. But, technically, Crown has had to rely on the other Elites having off-years (Cadets in 2008, Cavies and HNC (Finals) in 2009) to even get Top 4. But, that's drum corps. It doesn't matter if everyone has an off-year except one corps, you've still got a championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesjones0611 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Elite? I don't know. It's a very broad term. But, technically, Crown has had to rely on the other Elites having off-years (Cadets in 2008, Cavies and HNC (Finals) in 2009) to even get Top 4.But, that's drum corps. It doesn't matter if everyone has an off-year except one corps, you've still got a championship. This is a completely idiotic statement. The Cavaliers were very good in 2009, and the Cadets had arguably one of their best seasons ever. You are just throwing insults at Crown. They were simply EXTREMELY good in 2008 and 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) Elite? I don't know. It's a very broad term. But, technically, Crown has had to rely on the other Elites having off-years (Cadets in 2008, Cavies and HNC (Finals) in 2009) to even get Top 4.But, that's drum corps. It doesn't matter if everyone has an off-year except one corps, you've still got a championship. Yowsa, I'll let others respond to that assessment of Cadets, Cavaliers and SCV in 2009. But as far as what is an 'elite' corps, one definition to consider is anyone that has made the top 3 in the past 20 years. That is truly only a handful of corps, and the small number for so long accentuates what an accomplishment it is. If I am not mistaken, over the previous 20 seasons only 6 corps ever made the top 3, and after Star dropped out, only these 5: Blue Devils Cadets Cavaliers Phantom Santa Clara So welcome, Crown, to the elite. Edited September 1, 2009 by skevinp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooldbc Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Yowsa, I'll let others respond to that assessment of Cadets, Cavaliers and SCV in 2009.But as far as what is an 'elite' corps, one definition to consider is anyone that has made the top 3 in the past 20 years. That is truly only a handful of existing corps, and the small number for so long accentuates what an accomplishment it is. If I am not mistaken, it was only 5 corps for the previous 20 seasons: Blue Devils Cadets Cavaliers Phantom Santa Clara You are forgetting Star of Indiana - 3rd in 1990, 1st in 1991, 3rd in 1992, 2nd in 1993. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcsnare93 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) I would consider 'elite' as those who dominate on a consistent basis -- don't think one year in the top 3 would exactly qualify as that. It could just as easily turn out to be a fluke. We shall see... In any case, though, Crown had one incredible season! Edited September 1, 2009 by dcsnare93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooldbc Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 You are forgetting Star of Indiana - 3rd in 1990, 1st in 1991, 3rd in 1992, 2nd in 1993. Star, of course, is inactive. I guess this formally excludes them from the ranks of the elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
do.it.up. Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 If you ask me, placing in the top 3 even once in the past 20 years is quite a liberal requirement to be given the title "elite". Crown has been a steady rise, and who knows where they'll be finishing in the future. They've had a few phenomenal seasons and great shows the past few summers, but I'd definitely not consider them "elite". Yet. Maybe in 3-5 years, I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCImonkey Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) If you ask me, placing in the top 3 even once in the past 20 years is quite a liberal requirement to be given the title "elite".Crown has been a steady rise, and who knows where they'll be finishing in the future. They've had a few phenomenal seasons and great shows the past few summers, but I'd definitely not consider them "elite". Yet. Maybe in 3-5 years, I will. Elite is one of those vague terms that is bestowed upon an individual or group for a variety of subjective reasonings. I'm sure history will look favorably upon Crown when its all said and done, but as of right now, I'm not sure they are concerned with being labeled "elite" as much as they are concerned with being labeled "championship contender". Drum corps is fickle. One day you are on top of the world......the next day you are looking up at the rest of the world. (BD is the only corps that doesn't fall far from the top) I guess Crown has earned a certain amount of respect on here, but yes, they still have some more dues to pay. Edited September 1, 2009 by DCImonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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