Perfect scores.

[dciknowledge]

Simple.

Even with a tear and a few rubs, the judge in question believed them to be ___ amount of points (or tenths) better than the next highest ensemble.

So if i gave Corps A a 9.8 and Corps B was clearly better, (or even a little bit better), i gig them the remaining .2.

The problem is... they weren't better. A little hype involved with thier DL. MBI was so very impressive from an ensemble stand point... Hurcs were possibly more clean as well.

[NJDrumGuy]

The problem is... they weren't better. A little hype involved with thier DL. MBI was so very impressive from an ensemble stand point... Hurcs were possibly more clean as well.

When is everyone going to realize its not just about being clean?

the local conservatory orchestra could play Tchaik 4 completely clean and precise, doesn't mean its going to be better than the NY Philharmonic's version, even

if there is a "slight tear," or "some dirt" in their performance. There's WAY more to music (and percussion,) than JUST playing clean.

The two drum judges who gave the perfect scores have judged DCI finals, many many many many many many times. I trust their scores as I'm sure most people do. Not to take anything away from Hurcs or MBI because they have VERY respectable programs, but I'd even go as far to say the drum judges probably wished they could have given even bigger spreads between Buccs and everyone else.

Edited September 14, 2009 by NJDrumGuy

[CorpsBuff]

To the extent of a Maximum score there's also the aspect of Minimum score. Let's say Corps A is on first followed by Corps B and Corps C. It's still the "regular season" and Corps C has been scoring among the bottom two season long. Corps B has been among the top 2, and Corps A has been in the middle. So we have

Corps A - 86.5

Corps B 96.5

Corps C 66.5

Does this mean then that the score given to corps A sets the scale for which all other corps are to be measured that night? How fair is that to not only corps A but also corps B and C? Does this mean that Corps C was exactly 20 points WORSE than Corps A AND Corps B was exactly 20 points better than B and 40 points better than C? What if Corps A had a great or a terrible show?

I'm not saying that anything is flawed here, but I'm saying that it seems like the scores are not based upon actual results but rather based upon better or worse than the first corps of the evening. If that is the case then how does one score the first corps of the night? For the sake of argument what if Bucs had gone on first? Is it possible to receive a perfect score while being the first corps of the night? If not, is that fair to the Bucs? If so is that fair to other corps?

Again, I'm not trying to push any hidden agenda nor am I representing any organization with my opinions, I'm just curious.

Edited September 14, 2009 by CorpsBuff

[doppeljr]

It's all about numbers management. Many would say that none of those corps deserved a 99, or a 95 or whatever. It is all subjective based on the bar that is set by the first corps. There could be preconceived notions that may affect this as well, but numbers management could be the reason for excessively high scores.

[lovindrumcorps]

When is everyone going to realize its not just about being clean?

the local conservatory orchestra could play Tchaik 4 completely clean and precise, doesn't mean its going to be better than the NY Philharmonic's version, even

if there is a "slight tear," or "some dirt" in their performance. There's WAY more to music (and percussion,) than JUST playing clean.

The two drum judges who gave the perfect scores have judged DCI finals, many many many many many many times. I trust their scores as I'm sure most people do. Not to take anything away from Hurcs or MBI because they have VERY respectable programs, but I'd even go as far to say the drum judges probably wished they could have given even bigger spreads between Buccs and everyone else.

I don't trust the system at all. I'm sure there is more to any one judges "number" then just judging one corps performance.

how many times have you heard a judge make commentary of what they would have done because he simply didn't like the book rather then judge what was actually being performed. That is even a perfect performance would not garner a very good number because the judge spends more time trying to rewrite a corps book rather then judge how well the corps is performing. That is a huge flaw, it's the difference between winning and not winning. The other is there are no checks and balances to counteract a judges decision when its clear he didn't do what was expected of him while judging his caption.

A judge is not supposed to like or dislike, they are supposed to judge the performance in front of them whether they like a program or not..You have to give credit to the performers. Make comments on things you think may work better, but be sure not to let your personal tastes get in the way of a number to a corps when they did exactly what they were supposed to do.

[Gary Matczak]

To the extent of a Maximum score there's also the aspect of Minimum score. Let's say Corps A is on first followed by Corps B and Corps C. It's still the "regular season" and Corps C has been scoring among the bottom two season long. Corps B has been among the top 2, and Corps A has been in the middle. So we have

Corps A - 86.5

Corps B 96.5

Corps C 66.5

Does this mean then that the score given to corps A sets the scale for which all other corps are to be measured that night? How fair is that to not only corps A but also corps B and C? Does this mean that Corps C was exactly 20 points WORSE than Corps A AND Corps B was exactly 20 points better than B and 40 points better than C? What if Corps A had a great or a terrible show?

I'm not saying that anything is flawed here, but I'm saying that it seems like the scores are not based upon actual results but rather based upon better or worse than the first corps of the evening. If that is the case then how does one score the first corps of the night? For the sake of argument what if Bucs had gone on first? Is it possible to receive a perfect score while being the first corps of the night? If not, is that fair to the Bucs? If so is that fair to other corps?

Again, I'm not trying to push any hidden agenda nor am I representing any organization with my opinions, I'm just curious.

the tic system is long gone,..........it's all subjective now...............correct placement is much more important than the number, whatever the scale,................Tom P has said it a hundred ways to Sunday,.............It's Rank, then Rate...........

Edited September 14, 2009 by Gary Matczak

[TomPeashey]

two posts deserve answers...

FIRST Number of a show... YES, this is ALWAYS the most important number of the show. YES, it sets your standards for all the other numbers. This is judging 101 - basic numbers management...

Your question, if Bucs had gone on first could they have received a 10 out of 10? Answer is not so easy - probably not. I would have been VERY reluctant to give the first corps on a perfect number - or - for that matter to give a perfect number if there's ANYONE left to perform... not impossible mind you - but very reluctant to do it... why? You must assume that someone coming on after could be better... I've seen it happen that someone gets a max number with another corps to come on - so it CAN happen, but again, I'm personally uncomfortable with it...

to lovindrumcorps

you say you don't trust the system and then describe a scenario where the judge would be WRONG... although the judges "experience" is critical to his ability to judge properly, you are correct that he should be able to rise above his own personal preferences.

I guess I'm uncomfortable with you saying you don't trust the system because it can be abused or done improperly??? Crap happens... that's not the system's fault... believe me - this system has far less opportunity for error than many used previously...

One thing you should be clearer about is your scenario... again simply stating personal preferences is wrong... trying to re-write the book is also probably not a good idea... but offering constructive assistance to improving is what it's all about... after ranking and rating the third and final priority is "Evaluating"... to do this, you must talk about what's right and sometimes what's wrong...

Further... this is a slippery slope BUT... especially in the case of drumming who seem more enamoured with ticks and tears than other captions, the judge is put in the position of ranking and rating and quite possibly both sections could be tick free, but are they equal? Probably not, because through the judges experience he can not help but take demand into account... a simple example of this would be 9 snares stand still and play a perfect lick at 160 BPM another 9 snares play the same lick perfectly while crab stepping over 30 yards at 160 BPM... who gets more reward...??? pretty obvious... No one said judging is simple - quite the opposite - it is VERY difficult and requires experts to do it correctly...

Edited September 14, 2009 by TomPeashey

[donincardona]

two posts deserve answers...

FIRST Number of a show... YES, this is ALWAYS the most important number of the show. YES, it sets your standards for all the other numbers. This is judging 101 - basic numbers management...

Your question, if Bucs had gone on first could they have received a 10 out of 10? Answer is not so easy - probably not. I would have been VERY reluctant to give the first corps on a perfect number - or - for that matter to give a perfect number if there's ANYONE left to perform... not impossible mind you - but very reluctant to do it... why? You must assume that someone coming on after could be better... I've seen it happen that someone gets a max number with another corps to come on - so it CAN happen, but again, I'm personally uncomfortable with it...

to lovindrumcorps

you say you don't trust the system and then describe a scenario where the judge would be WRONG... although the judges "experience" is critical to his ability to judge properly, you are correct that he should be able to rise above his own personal preferences.

I guess I'm uncomfortable with you saying you don't trust the system because it can be abused or done improperly??? Crap happens... that's not the system's fault... believe me - this system has far less opportunity for error than many used previously...

One thing you should be clearer about is your scenario... again simply stating personal preferences is wrong... trying to re-write the book is also probably not a good idea... but offering constructive assistance to improving is what it's all about... after ranking and rating the third and final priority is "Evaluating"... to do this, you must talk about what's right and sometimes what's wrong...

Further... this is a slippery slope BUT... especially in the case of drumming who seem more enamoured with ticks and tears than other captions, the judge is put in the position of ranking and rating and quite possibly both sections could be tick free, but are they equal? Probably not, because through the judges experience he can not help but take demand into account... a simple example of this would be 9 snares stand still and play a perfect lick at 160 BPM another 9 snares play the same lick perfectly while crab stepping over 30 yards at 160 BPM... who gets more reward...??? pretty obvious... No one said judging is simple - quite the opposite - it is VERY difficult and requires experts to do it correctly...

that's interesting. in the mid 70's.........even though it was the tic system.........the skyliner drumline always got high marks because of the huge sizie of the line. the saners had 13-14 snares. they did have an easier book.....not knocking them........but because of their size it made the drum book very demanding. tring to hold them together with all those snares is harder then 4-6 snares.result a higher score. very simple.

[melligene]

I am not involved with any competing corps' (just so that is clear) and my Opinions are strictly my own. I don't think there is any system of judging that is absolute but, again IMO, as flawed as it was/is the "Tic System" of judging had EVERY Corps' starting with a perfect score. You were considered "The Best" until you proved otherwise. The current system, and again....my personal opinion, relies on a judges presumable expert opinion.......PERIOD !! One has to assume that human nature is not partisan. CRAP !! It's part of our makeup. It's who we are.

Putting things into perspective........were I an adjudicator of our activity with the current system...I would have to program myself to forsee the "Unknown" and hoping I got it right. This is NOT a dig on the judges as they are working within the paramaters they are given. Just sayin.........

[TomPeashey]

Don, you cite yet another example of why the tick system was subjective... a great one indeed... so not only is the judge deciding his "tolerance" level determined by his perceived "inherent demand" then he's bouncing that againt DENSITY... who's better? In the 70's example you make... he was comparing 6 snares doing something harder than 13 doing something easier... YIKES... it was so difficult to do...

Gene, we agree to disagree. I found the tear down system to be frought with opportunity for error and you feel it's better... our opinions make the world go round... in the end, it's up to the corps to decide how they wish to be judged... In DCA's case, the judges simply do what they are told to do by the corps...

Edited September 14, 2009 by TomPeashey