Hindsight

[euponitone]

The truth, for me at least, is a lot more obvious than music played, Bb or G bugles, blah blah blah. The truth is that in the 60's and 70's (and much more in the 50's) Americans were a nation of joiners. There were three channels on the TV, if you were lucky, there was no Netflix or iTunes, or....you get the idea. All "joining" activities (church, Boy/Girl scouts, mainline churches, Rotary, Kiwanis, VFW, Elks) have experienced precipitous declines- you could look it up. Did the individuality/do your own thing historical movements in this country contribute to this? Of course. You can't have a generation of people with "question authority" bumper stickers on their cars without it affecting society (and especially the children of those with the stickers). My point is not what could have been done to save the Geneseo Knights, but that the Academy (for example) has appeared and that the interest in DCI/DCA appears to still be very strong. Those of us with kids in activity most likely had a very positive experience marching somewhere ourselves. That our children do not reject our values wholesale and in fact march/play at a much higher level than many of us could have ever imagined is also miraculous. These forums certainly (for better or worse) do not represent mainstream anything, but that's the beauty of the internet- we can all find a niche, and a place to do what makes us feel fulfilled. Frankly I find all this talk about "how I wish we were still marching tympani" ridiculous. You want to march timpani and play G Bugles? Go found an organization that does that. There are many things that I miss about being 18, and God knows lots of body parts worked better then, but I wouldn't go back for a million dollars. Watch a DCI-winning corps on video from the 70's and 80's, then watch Spartacus or any top 5 show from the last couple of years. I certainly can't make the argument that things were better then. Different yes, but aesthecially better? Nope. Not for me anyway.

yes

Awesome....

[audiodb]

Nephews got involved in this back then and got told two reasons why it was expanding so much at the time. And I can see how this can be applied to DC.

1) Probably cheapest sport to put on the field. At the cheapest end the biggest expense are the balls themselves. Only other needed things are traffic cones or flags to mark field and goal boundaries and t-shirts to tell the teams apart.

2) Everyone involved and feels part of the team. Even if a kid stinks at sports they can be on the field and at least follow the mob. Compare that to best 9 or 11 kids in baseball or football and the sucky kids spend the season on the bench.

Good points, Jim. Think how these applied in 1970; think how well they apply in 2010. Things have changed in those regards.

Biggest problem is finding volunteers for whatever is needed (can name a few other activities that died off or are dying due to this).

But the volunteer tasks are not as demanding. Compared to kitchen truck duty, souvie trailer, or actually directing a drum corps, any youth soccer volunteer task is a walk in the park.

[JimF-LowBari]

But the volunteer tasks are not as demanding. Compared to kitchen truck duty, souvie trailer, or actually directing a drum corps, any youth soccer volunteer task is a walk in the park.

Agreed and part of my point. If groups that only need a few hours a week or less are having problems finding help, I can't image how hard it would be for corps.

That's how I ended up on church council for 6 years. Not many people willing to make the time at certain hours on certain days of the month. Only worked out to 8-10 hours a month counting "homework" when I got shang-haied to be Council VP. Also the main reason why that churchs Scout Troop disbanded. Had enough kids and not enough help (mainly due to parents working two jobs to survive).

Edited January 11, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[craiga]

I've been around the activity since 1977, so I am probably one of the "dinosaurs"....and my point of view will probably surprise some people. I am still involved (with BAC), so I am well aware of "old vs new".

People like to quote the "500 dead drum corps since 1960" thing.....this is actually a fairly disingenuous argument because most of these corps folded without ever having been part of DCI. Many corps back in the 60s and 70s ONLY competed locally and literally lasted only a year or two. What role do Bb horns and amps play with their demise? None.

In addition, I can recall VIVIDLY attending the World Open in Lynn, MA back in the late 70s, and YES, there were 30 or 40 corps there in a two-day show. But, most of these corps had twenty members or less, rode in an old school bus, and ate their meals at the Burger King across the street if they didn't want the PB&Js their corps was "serving". They were run by a mom and pop, and while many of the kids did benefit from the experience, many others were not treated all that well, either. The Braintree Braves had a total membership of 6 in those days, and rode to the show in a Ford station wagon. Are they one of the 500 corps for whom we weep?

Of the 4 "World Class" corps and couple dozen little corps from the Boston area that folded since 1970, almost all were due to gross mismanagement and had NOTHING to do with DCI's creative trends, unless you consider IRS compliance and bus safety concerns to be foistered upon the activity by the "drum corps elite".

We need to stop looking back 30 years through rose colored glasses. Today's drum corps provide an excellent experience for their members, who are well fed, well housed, transported on safe buses, and taught by professional, educated people. The activity will continue to evolve...and thank god!

Edited January 11, 2010 by craiga

[mobrien]

Perhaps if the leadership of the drum corps activity had looked at the issues you bring up (like increasing transportation costs and decreasing pool of adult volunteers), and developed strategies to confront those issues (like focusing on operating models that are less travel-intensive and less demanding for volunteers), we'd have kept more corps around. Perhaps if they did this now, we'd preserve the few corps we have left. Perhaps that, combined with the marketing and recruiting strategies developed on DCI's watch the past dozen years, could even generate growth.

Or we could just make excuses instead.

Any argument that doesn't take into account the intense growth of competitive high school band is missing the biggest element of the story. Why should Justin Blow's parents be interested in spending $500-1000 a year (could anyone really offer a local corps part-time experience for less?) when the school band program is there, gets him (as far as they're concerned) the same experience, and is more or less cost-free?

You mention that some youth programs have grown - absolutely correct. And one that grew the fastest is one that is a DIRECT competitor to local drum corps.

Edited January 11, 2010 by mobrien

[audiodb]

Any argument that doesn't take into account the intense growth of competitive high school band is missing the biggest element of the story. Why should Justin Blow's parents be interested in spending $500-1000 a year (could anyone really offer a local corps part-time experience for less?) when the school band program is there, gets him (as far as they're concerned) the same experience, and is more or less cost-free?

At least five reasons:

- Justin's school district doesn't have a marching band.

- His school marching band doesn't compete.

- He is older/younger than HS age.

- He wants the same experience in the summer too.

- He wants a different (more intense) experience than that of his HS marching band.

[audiodb]

People like to quote the "500 dead drum corps since 1960" thing.....this is actually a fairly disingenious argument because most of these corps folded without ever having been part of DCI.

Talk about a disingenuous argument.

No one is contending that corps folding in the 1960s had anything to do with DCI. DCI did not exist until 1972.

From that point on, though, if you sit down and look in detail, you'll find that the majority of corps in the DCI era did participate in DCI-sanctioned shows at some point. Not to mention how many more corps had to adapt to DCI rules as their local circuits adopted the DCI rulebook at the urging of corps competing in both circuits.

Many corps back in the 60s and 70s ONLY competed locally and literally lasted only a year or two. What role do Bb horns and amps play with their demise? None.

You are being doubly disingenuous now. No one is contending that Bb horns and amps killed corps in the '60s and '70s, especially since they didn't come along until the most recent decade. More importantly, you mischaracterize the majority of DCI-era corps. While there were some that competed exclusively in local circuits, many other local circuit corps made forays into regional and national-level contests such as World Open, U.S. Open or DCI Championships.

In addition, I can recall VIVIDLY attending the World Open in Lynn, MA back in the late 70s, and YES, there were 30 or 40 corps there in a two-day show.

Typical late '70s World Open had 55-60 corps competing. I question how vivid your memory is.

But, most of these corps had twenty members or less, rode in an old school bus, and ate their meals at the Burger King across the street if they didn't want the PB&Js their corps was "serving". They were run by a mom and pop, and while many of the kids did benefit from the experience, many others were not treated all that well, either. The Braintree Braves had a total membership of 6 in those days, and rode to the show in a Ford station wagon. Are they one of the 500 corps for whom we weep?

That is a ludicrous exaggeration. Corps of 20 or less members were the exception, not the rule....and the Braintree Braves never competed at World Open. You're just making stuff up at this point.

Of the 4 "World Class" corps and couple dozen little corps from the Boston area that folded since 1970, almost all were due to gross mismanagement and had NOTHING to do with DCI's creative trends

Ah, the point of your rant...."mismanagement"...."nothing to do with DCI". We've heard these talking points before, but not with such blatantly rewritten history offered in support.

Speaking of which, your counts are off (again). The Boston area had more than a couple dozen corps. In the 1970s, four local circuits operated concurrently in the area, with at least twice that number of participating corps.

As for the "four world-class that folded", well, oops. There were seven that made DCI top 25:

27th Lancers

Pembroke Imperials

Sancians

Cardinals

Defenders

North Star

Alliance

Never mind other DCI open-class entrants like Spectra, Royal Marquis, Middlesex Guardsmen, Valley Airs and Malden Diplomats....or corps like I.C. Reveries, Blue Angels, Dukes of Marlboro, St. George Olympians or Golden Rays that competed in major open-class contests other than DCI. You probably wouldn't consider them "world-class".

[craiga]

Thank you for taking the time to analyze each of my "memories". At the end of the day, however, the truth of the matter is that some folks on DCP like to blame fewer corps on DCI, and YES, they mention hundreds of corps dying off even though, AS I STATED, many of these corps deaths had nothing to do with DCI. And, AS I STATED, many were not even from the DCI era.

As far as the World Open goes, you aren't really going to rewrite history by suggesting that there were 55-60 World Class or even medium sized Open Class corps at those shows are you?

And yes, I am well aware of the EMASS, CYO, Mayflower, and UOEC circuits back in the day since I was there. None of this "numbers management" addresses the RAMPANT mismanagement that characterized many of the corps you mention. As a matter of fact, FOUR of the drum corps you listed were managed by the same FAMILY in Massachusetts that STILL owes staff $$ from the last incarnation that was on the field.

It is time for us to look inward as an activity, for that is where the blame is. The troubles with the Spartans in the past or Cap Reg not feeding their kids a few years ago or 27th Lancers' buses being unsafe had nothing to do with the creative direction with DCI. Drum Corps need to be run like a business, and the groups that tried to continue to run like a mom and pop operation are the ones that cannot survive.

Edited January 11, 2010 by craiga

[CitBos]

At least five reasons:

- Justin's school district doesn't have a marching band.

- His school marching band doesn't compete.

- He is older/younger than HS age.

- He wants the same experience in the summer too.

- He wants a different (more intense) experience than that of his HS marching band.

Let's not forget:

-many school systems, like mine, charge for extra after school programs like marching band.

-during drum corps, he would make more friends that he would not have meet in school/marching band.

-during drum corps, he'll get to travel.

-because of this traveling, he might even make more friends from different parts of the country.

[audiodb]

Thank you for taking the time to analyze each of my "memories". At the end of the day, however, the truth of the matter is that some folks on DCP like to blame fewer corps on DCI, and YES, they mention hundreds of corps dying off even though, AS I STATED, many of these corps deaths had nothing to do with DCI. And, AS I STATED, many were not even from the DCI era.

A couple of points.

- Yes, corps did fold before 1972. New corps also sprang up before 1972. Before 1972, new corps sprang up as often as old corps folded. Since 1972, corps have folded faster than the birth rate of new corps.

- I am no fan of people who blame DCI for everything. Nor am I a fan of people who insist that DCI has no culpability at all. The truth is somewhere in between.

As far as the World Open goes, you aren't really going to rewrite history by suggesting that there were 55-60 World Class or even medium sized Open Class corps at those shows are you?

Of course not....the two-day events you went to included "class B" and all-girl in addition to "class A" (open-class for you non-New-Englanders).

And yes, I am well aware of the EMASS, CYO, Mayflower, and UOEC

....and Greater New England....

circuits back in the day since I was there. None of this "numbers management" addresses the RAMPANT mismanagement that characterized many of the corps you mention. As a matter of fact, FOUR of the drum corps you listed were managed by the same FAMILY in Massachusetts that STILL owes staff $$ from the last incarnation that was on the field.

As I indicated above, no one is entirely to blame, or entirely blameless. I'm sure there have been some instances of mismanagement.

It is time for us to look inward as an activity, for that is where the blame is. The troubles with the Spartans in the past or Cap Reg not feeding their kids a few years ago or 27th Lancers' buses being unsafe had nothing to do with the creative direction with DCI.

Not the creative direction, but the financial/operational direction of DCI. Maybe if 27th Lancers' membership in DCI didn't depend on touring all summer, they could have put some money aside to maintain their buses. Or if they didn't have to tour so much, they could have chartered instead of owning buses in the first place.

Drum Corps need to be run like a business, and the groups that tried to continue to run like a mom and pop operation are the ones that cannot survive.

Alright, then. But what business do you know of that is based on an unsustainably travel-intensive touring model, where obtaining a voice in the running of said business is contingent upon mandatory annual participation in that tour?