DCP No Longer Important?

[BRASSO]

ok...then since all you do is come on here and mock people and corps...why do you come here if it isn't important?

A famous quote on criticisms ( and maybe a good reminder ) :

" It is not the critic who counts : not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiently, who errs and comes up short again and again, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end,the triumph of high achievement and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory, nor defeat. " ( Theodore Roosevelt)

Edited January 25, 2010 by BRASSO

[Scerpella]

A famous quote on criticisms ( and maybe a good reminder ) :

" It is not the critic who counts : not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiently, who errs and comes up short again and again, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end,the triumph of high achievement and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory, nor defeat. " ( Theodore Roosevelt)

What makes DCP different I think from the average sports forum is that a high percentage of members here have actually marched and a good number of them in top 20 corps of their time. What is said here is not the speculation of the armchair quarterback. While most sports fans have played the game most have not played at the highest levels. So ultimately while there are a lot of critics here on DCP they are not the critics who live in the theoretical world.

[BariBrian]

What makes DCP different I think from the average sports forum is that a high percentage of members here have actually marched and a good number of them in top 20 corps of their time. What is said here is not the speculation of the armchair quarterback. While most sports fans have played the game most have not played at the highest levels. So ultimately while there are a lot of critics here on DCP they are not the critics who live in the theoretical world.

Excellent. Nicely said and demonstrated

[perc2100]

Sounds like you've just described DCP here( correctly, in my view ) as just like all of the thousands of sports and sport's teams fans message boards in America. ( except perhaps that those sports fans team discussion boards are way... WAAAY.... more critical of their team, players, coaches, commisioners, owners, refs, other teams, other fans, etc than DCP could EVER be)

Heh, that is totally true. You can add that typically on the sports boards there are WAY more trolls from opposing teams than there are on here.

[perc2100]

What makes DCP different I think from the average sports forum is that a high percentage of members here have actually marched and a good number of them in top 20 corps of their time. What is said here is not the speculation of the armchair quarterback. While most sports fans have played the game most have not played at the highest levels. So ultimately while there are a lot of critics here on DCP they are not the critics who live in the theoretical world.

Which, frankly, is almost worse. Instead of armchair QB's you have, as you said, people who participated. Sometimes those people won Championships, sometimes they marched pre-DCI, sometimes in previous decades. The majority of them, however, do NOT currently participate in the activity: there are very few directors, staff members, board members, and current members that participate in the discussions (especially in regards to rules and design). So what we have, are people who think that their own personal experience in the activity gives them the knowledge and experience to believe that they know best way to run DCI (rules changes, scoring, judging, design, etc). And most of the armchair sports fans on forums to claim to know what the TRUE way to play/coach sports it. For example, when the Chargers were upset in the Divisional round, leagues of Charger fans to not immediately hit the internet and state that when the Chargers went to the Super Bowl in 94, THAT was true NFL football and the current edition of the Chargers team isn't "real" NFL football. Sports fans seem to at least know their place in the world: they are generally knowledgeable when it comes to stats, history, etc. but generally don't believe that outdated equipment and strategy are the only "real" incarnations of football.

I think sometimes a little bit of experience is dangerous, as it gives people the perception that they know more than they really do. Until you've sat on the DCI Board, or have been the director of a drum and bugle corps, you don't really have a strong idea of what it takes to run and operate DCI and/or it's member corps. I have ZERO problems with people saying "I don't like amps, I love any key brass, I hate synths, etc." I love debating the merits of all of those things. But when so many people make gross generalizations and spout their own personal opinions as fact/truth, and say nonsense like "synths aren't real drum corps," then the discussion, in my opinion, degrades the legitimacy of this forum.

[BRASSO]

What makes DCP different I think from the average sports forum is that a high percentage of members here have actually marched and a good number of them in top 20 corps of their time. What is said here is not the speculation of the armchair quarterback. While most sports fans have played the game most have not played at the highest levels. So ultimately while there are a lot of critics here on DCP they are not the critics who live in the theoretical world.

I'd agree with this as well. We've had Corps Directors, Staff on here from time to time ( even from Corps that discourage their members from coming on here). Even former judges are on here. And DCP probably has a much higher group of posters that have participated on the field of competion, than we'd see on college sports fans team discussion boards, where most of the fans who post there never played that sport at the college level that they're commenting on.

My central point however was two fold : 1) to understand that DCP is tame compared to what is allowed to be posted on sports team's message boards ( where the criticisms can be no holds barred brutal, harsh, and VERY personal ). And........2) any marcher on here who reads about criticism about their Corps, or DCI in general, etc should just remember that it's just somebody's opinion. No more, no less. Most, if not ALL the criticisms on here are not directed at the marchers either. So they shouldn't take any of the criticisms personally. ( and to the notion that unless you've served on the DCI Board of Directors, or run a DCI Corps, then you're comments are not worthhile... well DCP would have maybe 3 posters who could talk to one another on here and take stock in what the other two were saying).

What the activity needs is MORE input..... MORE transparancy..... MORE responses to inquiries for judging caption explanations and rationales for what judges do. From the judges themselves. Coaches, umpires, refs, explain themselves all the time after a game. When was the last time, judges gave a post Finals press interview for the fans about what they liked and did not like about show performances ? We know. Never. They score... then get out quickly and disappear until next year.

The biggest cure for ignorance and misinformation is........... education. But you can't have enlightement of what is being done, if it's being done with little to no explanation or rationale to the public as to WHY there is merit in the policies implemented. ( Well, this is my 2 cents worth anyway )

Edited January 25, 2010 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

Well said. It's probably a good thing to remind posters from time to time that young fans (12,13) are on here too, and some are really excited about what they see and hear ( as we all were when we looked with big eyes on the majestic, wonderful spectacle we call " DCI " for te 1st time.

And likewise, for marchers and staff to keep in mind that criticism..... even totally unjust criticsm..... is a part of life. And how we deal with criticism defines our resiliancy, our courage, our determination to push on, regardless of criticisms from others.

right, but their view is if you don't gush and rave, you're "hurting the kids"

[BRASSO]

right, but their view is if you don't gush and rave, you're "hurting the kids"

The very WORST thing we could do is try and shield our youth from criticisims.... even unjust criticisms.

If all we want to do is have them hear the positives, eventually the applause will ineviteably be seen by our youth as hollow, phoney, and worse yet........... meaningless.

[audiodb]

Which, frankly, is almost worse. Instead of armchair QB's you have, as you said, people who participated. Sometimes those people won Championships, sometimes they marched pre-DCI, sometimes in previous decades. The majority of them, however, do NOT currently participate in the activity: there are very few directors, staff members, board members, and current members that participate in the discussions (especially in regards to rules and design). So what we have, are people who think that their own personal experience in the activity gives them the knowledge and experience to believe that they know best way to run DCI (rules changes, scoring, judging, design, etc). And most of the armchair sports fans on forums to claim to know what the TRUE way to play/coach sports it. For example, when the Chargers were upset in the Divisional round, leagues of Charger fans to not immediately hit the internet and state that when the Chargers went to the Super Bowl in 94, THAT was true NFL football and the current edition of the Chargers team isn't "real" NFL football. Sports fans seem to at least know their place in the world: they are generally knowledgeable when it comes to stats, history, etc. but generally don't believe that outdated equipment and strategy are the only "real" incarnations of football.

So now we see what your agenda is....

I think sometimes a little bit of experience is dangerous, as it gives people the perception that they know more than they really do. Until you've sat on the DCI Board, or have been the director of a drum and bugle corps, you don't really have a strong idea of what it takes to run and operate DCI and/or it's member corps. I have ZERO problems with people saying "I don't like amps, I love any key brass, I hate synths, etc." I love debating the merits of all of those things. But when so many people make gross generalizations and spout their own personal opinions as fact/truth, and say nonsense like "synths aren't real drum corps," then the discussion, in my opinion, degrades the legitimacy of this forum.

Legitimacy? In what sense?

This is a discussion group. As long as there is discussion, and a group, that much is legitimate. Beyond that, the opinions of individuals within said group will vary in "legitimacy".

[BRASSO]

Which, frankly, is almost worse. Instead of armchair QB's you have, as you said, people who participated. Sometimes those people won Championships, sometimes they marched pre-DCI, sometimes in previous decades. The majority of them, however, do NOT currently participate in the activity: there are very few directors, staff members, board members, and current members that participate in the discussions (especially in regards to rules and design). So what we have, are people who think that their own personal experience in the activity gives them the knowledge and experience to believe that they know best way to run DCI (rules changes, scoring, judging, design, etc). And most of the armchair sports fans on forums to claim to know what the TRUE way to play/coach sports it. For example, when the Chargers were upset in the Divisional round, leagues of Charger fans to not immediately hit the internet and state that when the Chargers went to the Super Bowl in 94, THAT was true NFL football and the current edition of the Chargers team isn't "real" NFL football. Sports fans seem to at least know their place in the world: they are generally knowledgeable when it comes to stats, history, etc. but generally don't believe that outdated equipment and strategy are the only "real" incarnations of football.

I think sometimes a little bit of experience is dangerous, as it gives people the perception that they know more than they really do. Until you've sat on the DCI Board, or have been the director of a drum and bugle corps, you don't really have a strong idea of what it takes to run and operate DCI and/or it's member corps. I have ZERO problems with people saying "I don't like amps, I love any key brass, I hate synths, etc." I love debating the merits of all of those things. But when so many people make gross generalizations and spout their own personal opinions as fact/truth, and say nonsense like "synths aren't real drum corps," then the discussion, in my opinion, degrades the legitimacy of this forum.

So the logic at work here in your opinion is that if a person who might have marched once says " synths arn't real Drum Corps ", those comments do not have " legitimacy", because that poster hasn't " sat on a DCI Board or have been the Director of a Drum and Bugle Corps" ? What if the " Director of a Drum and Bugle Corps" or someone who once " sat on the DCI Board of Directors " decided that saxophones could be used in DCI Field competitions ? Would the " legitimacy " of their lofty position give them your unwavering support ? That they'd know what's best for both the activity a whole ,as well as knowing what's best for you as a fan ?