The Challenge

[Jeff Ream]

True. But we get that all the time. There was something else that made Boxer shine. Could it be as simple as key?

HH

I think it would have worked on G as well. i'll boil it down to arrangement and instruction

[Richard]

1. The "we" in those statements is the voting membership (the "haves")....but they enact rules and policies that apply to both the "haves" and the "have-nots".

Who are the have-nots in World Class? And how did they get to World Class if they’re have-nots? Why have groups like Crown, Bluecoats, Boston and Blue Stars been able to build a successful program in the past 10 years despite these new rule changes? Are they the ones who got lucky breaks or are they the intelligent ones? Possibly both?

Society and the economy have as much to do with the number of active drum corps in this country as amplification does. Kids don’t want to march in a parade corps. I certainly don’t, parades are boring and I always hated doing them. The percentage of kids who are willing to be part of something perceived as “not the best” has declined. That’s not necessarily a good thing, but it’s a real thing. That’s why kids get cut from Cavaliers and go home for the summer. You can’t change the attitude of society’s youth, so you have to accept the consequences of it and move on. One consequence is not enough interested kids to field 400 drum corps. Amps or no amps, that fact isn’t changing. Other changes in society have had as much of an impact on corps finances, like insurance and safety regulations for buses. Amps (for example) are hardly the straw that broke the camel’s back here.

If you can show me that Southwind, Magic, Capital Regiment, Cascades, Kiwanis and any other World Class unit that went inactive because they bought amplification or Bb horns and it bankrupted them, then I’ll believe you.

Yes, new rules and expanded equipment options will eventually result in expenses for drum corps. Do you really think the groups above would be in a different situation if those rules didn’t exist? I understand your claim, but I’m failing to see the evidence to back it up.

I wouldn't use Gold as your shining example of startup stability in the new millenium, given recent events.

The recent events at Gold say nothing about their financial stability as an organization prior to the political mess.

Check post #81 in this thread and later discussion.....

Irony alert: Two of the reasons were to help corps with their finances. Then DCI added to the expenses with amps and electronics.

In post number 81 you listed the three reasons the any key brass rule was passed. Then you responded by saying 1. I dunno 2. I dunno 3. This doesn't happen. Then I told you that number 3 happens (e.g. Legends). What are you referring me to in that discussion?

So why did marching units all over the globe switch from Bb/F to G in the '70s, '80s and '90s?

Couldn't tell you. Tastes change I guess.

No, actually the reasons were all about money.

And you wonder why I think you're a consipracy theorist? Do you have evidence that the reasons "were all about the money" and that Yamaha runs DCI? Or is it just a 'theory' of yours related to a 'conspiracy'?

[JimF-LowBari]

Richard said:

In post number 81 you listed the three reasons the any key brass rule was passed. Then you responded by saying 1. I dunno 2. I dunno 3. This doesn't happen. Then I told you that number 3 happens (e.g. Legends). What are you referring me to in that discussion?

My response:

I never said that corps didn't start up thanks to the Bb rule. Some who posted thought that the idea of members bringing their own horns would "really help" in the create of new corps. IMO, it didn't help as much as some Bb proponents thought it would. My "don't remember names or details" meant that I have no idea if those corps even exist anymore.

Edited January 28, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[Richard]

Richard said:

In post number 81 you listed the three reasons the any key brass rule was passed. Then you responded by saying 1. I dunno 2. I dunno 3. This doesn't happen. Then I told you that number 3 happens (e.g. Legends). What are you referring me to in that discussion?

My response:

I never said that corps didn't start up thanks to the Bb rule. Some who posted thought that the idea of members bringing their own horns would "really help" in the create of new corps. IMO, it didn't help as much as some Bb proponents thought it would. My "don't remember names or details" meant that I have no idea if those corps even exist anymore.

Ok that's plenty fair. It's just really REALLY subjective to say that you don't think it helped as much as someone else thought it might help. Even if it helps 2 or 3 corps get off the ground then it's worthwhile right?

[Mello Dude]

Richard wrote:

And you wonder why I think you're a consipracy theorist? Do you have evidence that the reasons "were all about the money" and that Yamaha runs DCI? Or is it just a 'theory' of yours related to a 'conspiracy'?

Those awesome reading skills again. You act as though that is an EVIL thing as opposed to a practical thing. The resale of equipment, the endorsements of, yes Yamaha and others. What you can't stand is that it was a business decision, and not a decision based of what you believe is sound quality issues. That, was never brought up SAVE the fact those that KNOW better, because some people actually play instruments of all kinds, saw the passing of the unique drum corps sound. I don't quite honestly see how a rational sane person can't see this. I suppose it's the same people that think we are at 4% jobless rates as well but I digress.

The problem lies in the fact when you are no different from another type of marching unit (which are far more common and pervasive), you cease to be unique in the eyes of the vast majority of sane rational people. People pleaded for it NOT to happen, but business is business as they say. This is not some "vast right wing" conspiracy as you continue to tout as a mantra, simply a business decision to try and do the right thing (and I for one as many others think a tragic one). The bigger question, and Hopkins hints at this, is whether or not some people are going to question policies and rules set forth are actually killing drum corps? All I can say the jury is out but the trending isn't looking very good.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Mello Dude

[JimF-LowBari]

Ok that's plenty fair. It's just really REALLY subjective to say that you don't think it helped as much as someone else thought it might help. Even if it helps 2 or 3 corps get off the ground then it's worthwhile right?

I agree with helping create new corps is worth while (for any reason) but that wasn't my point when I posted. I just listed what the three selling points of going to Bb were at the time as I remembered and my IMO for each. And given it's 5-10 years since DCI opened up to Bb I'd think that any movement on new start up corps would be more readily seen. (But then again I have issues in how the non top WC corps are marketed.)

[Richard]

Those awesome reading skills again. You act as though that is an EVIL thing as opposed to a practical thing. The resale of equipment, the endorsements of, yes Yamaha and others. What you can't stand is that it was a business decision, and not a decision based of what you believe is sound quality issues. That, was never brought up SAVE the fact those that KNOW better, because some people actually play instruments of all kinds, saw the passing of the unique drum corps sound. I don't quite honestly see how a rational sane person can't see this. I suppose it's the same people that think we are at 4% jobless rates as well but I digress.

The problem lies in the fact when you are no different from another type of marching unit (which are far more common and pervasive), you cease to be unique in the eyes of the vast majority of sane rational people. People pleaded for it NOT to happen, but business is business as they say. This is not some "vast right wing" conspiracy as you continue to tout as a mantra, simply a business decision to try and do the right thing (and I for one as many others thing a tragic one). The bigger question, and Hopkins hints at this, is whether or not some people are going to question policies and rules set forth are actually killing drum corps? All I can say the jury is out but the trending isn't looking very good.

Ok, I did misinterpret what you were saying. Hopefully I can respond to this post appropriately. I support the fact that it's a business decision. If the move to Bb horns makes it easier for more corps to exist, then I support it. I am aware that the rule was implemented for 'sound quality issues'. But my point that corps switched because they WANTED to still stands. The Blue Devils and YEA could afford whatever cost differences exist between marching Gs and marching Bbs, but they chose Bbs and they didn't choose it for the cost savings.

I understand that drum corps doesn't sound the same anymore. But, if I'm reading correctly, the argument your making against any key brass is strictly tradition, uniqueness of sound, and nostalgia. I understand that most of the people posting in this thread don't like the way it sounds and a small portion of the 'uniqueness' is gone. For my money though, I'm not going to buy BOA mp3s because they STILL don't sound like drum corps despite the electronics and the Bb instruments. If a marching band ever sounds like the Blue Devils, well, props to that marching band. But I'm going to continue to buy DCI mp3s because they offer a uniqueness of sound not through the timbre of the brass but through the excellence of execution (which happens to be my favorite part about drum corps). Call me insane or irrational, but drum corps is still VERY unique. The fact that successful high school band programs can even be compared to the excellence of drum corps is a testament to those programs.

The only reason a lot of people think ‘corps is turning into band’ is because band has allowed electronic instruments and has been more pageantry-oriented for a longer time. If drum corps had moved in that direction first and band had followed suit, I wonder if the reaction would be the same. If anything, band has turned more into corps than corps had into band. Kids in bands across the country look up to DCI corps; do you think anyone in the Cadets or Crown looks up to a high school band? Doubtful. For a long time bands have emulated drum corps and many still do. However, at some point, bands eclipsed drum corps in terms of innovation, and now that DCI is playing catch-up, many of it’s loyal fans are seeing it as DCI emulating BOA or WGI, when all that’s really happened is that those other activities have stepped their game up to approach DCI levels. DCI is still the gold standard of the marching arts in my eyes, which is what gives it its uniqueness. No high school band can do what the best DCI groups do, despite being a very similar activity.

[JimF-LowBari]

The Blue Devils and YEA could afford whatever cost differences exist between marching Gs and marching Bbs, but they chose Bbs and they didn't choose it for the cost savings.

Did anyone at BD or Gaaarfield say they chose to go Bb because of the sound quality of Bb over G? Asking because I go to DCA and with my non-trained ears I really can't tell a difference between the Bb and G lines. And the differences that I do catch could also be attributed to manufactures instead of key. And personally the "G vs B" volume differences IMO (there I go with IMO again ) are caused by how the members are trained to play (more blend oriented) and construction of the older G horns.

[audiodb]

If you can show me that Southwind, Magic, Capital Regiment, Cascades, Kiwanis and any other World Class unit that went inactive because they bought amplification or Bb horns and it bankrupted them, then I’ll believe you.

The age-old, fallacious ploy of demanding "proof". I guess I shouldn't expect to change your mind, then.

However, it is interesting to note that every corps you named here made the switch from G bugles to Bb/F horns....and every one of them cited financial difficulties as a causal factor in going inactive. Who's point are you trying to prove, yours or mine?

Yes, new rules and expanded equipment options will eventually result in expenses for drum corps. Do you really think the groups above would be in a different situation if those rules didn’t exist?

Yes and no. I'm well aware that some of these corps would have failed anyway, but I do believe that some of our activity's attrition victims would still be with us had we pursued a lower-cost operating model.

I understand your claim, but I’m failing to see the evidence to back it up.

"Proof" again? You must be running out of viable counter-arguments.

The recent events at Gold say nothing about their financial stability as an organization prior to the political mess.

If their financial stability was dependent on their tenuous relationship with the school district, then they never really had much financial stability, did they?

[Mello Dude]

Richard wrote:

The Blue Devils and YEA could afford whatever cost differences exist between marching Gs and marching Bbs, but they chose Bbs and they didn't choose it for the cost savings.

Do you have ANY idea what a new set of horns cost?! Getting them free or at no to little cost vs paying for them is kinda a huge no-brainer for a non-profit.