Could the new pre-show rule lead to woodwinds?

[JimF-LowBari]

I have not met a single fan of the 70's, 80's, 90's that stopped following the activity because " their Corps died ". Almost without exception they told me they left because the shows increasingly for THEM did not have the appeal as it did from earlier decades. While this is only anecdotal evidence ( and thus fraught with danger in making conclusions from it ) my personal experience seems to run counter to the claim that the biggest reason for fan loss was due to the fan's personal Corps folding.

Same here and I knew fans of the 60s and late 50s.... Usually the answer was "not as entertaining to me as before", "just not the same", few others and of course "not just Drum Corps anymore".

Still remember walking away in 1993 thinking that Drum Corps had finally left me behind after almost 20 years. Also at that time in my life I had been married a few years, just bought a house and got pegged to be on my church council (go figure). So I just decided I had more important things to do with my life and walked out before the show was over.

Edit: Just saw glorys response to brasso about not meeting people who stopped attending. People I referred to above are from the two corps I've been with. None of the ones no longer attending shows or following DC do so because their corps no longer competes (both have Alumni type outfits).

Edited February 26, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[dans]

Hopkins has no more (or less) weight than you personally give him.

However, he is, indeed, the "lightning rod" for most of these changes, as he supports them so publicly . . . and that lets the other directors slink on by without notice.

If anything, Dave Gibbs from BD is probably at fault just as much for the changes over the past few years, if not more. Gibbs proposed any key, not Hop. He's also been on board with amps and electronics. Yet, no one ever brings him up in threads like these. Mark Arnold at BK is the same way with the same voting record, but no one ever makes any mention of him.

It takes a majority to pass this stuff . . .and it will all pass eventually. I have no doubt that twelve or thirteen people will decide that they know best and keep moving the yardstick until we reach the point where it becomes just another marching band circuit for a few designers and big names to make a few dollars in the summer.

However, let's not fool ourselves . . .Hop is at least brave enough to speak his mind, which is more than I can say for most corps directors and designers that hide behind him and vote "yes" anyway without having to explain themselves or their motivations for doing so.

So, if you have ire . . .point it towards the directors who decide to live in the ivory tower regarding their decision making process, use Hop as their shield, and get no blowback in the process.

That's a certain sort of cowardice in and of itself.

. . .maybe that should change. Require a director to issue a short statement for a "yes" (or "no") vote on a proposal. Interview them on "Field Pass" and hold their feet to the fire. Some sort of accountability for people not named "George Hopkins", 'cause at least he says what he means.

I won't hold my breath, though.

Keep hiding in the shadows, guys. Thanks a pantload.

thank you for a well thought our post; sometimes they are scarce on DCP. It is refreshing to read a post based on facts and reality ,not perception. I applaud your words of wisdom Bawker!

[JimF-LowBari]

Glory is correct, IMO. At any class 'A' show back in the day you'd see lots of small corps jackets of members from corps all over the tri-state area. My friends and I used to go to those shows when we marched a GSC corps in 68/69, and there would be all sorts of corps jackets on kids in the stands. Those corps gradually died off, leaving fewer small corps members to make up part of the audience...IMO that is another way the HS band members have become the replacements for the old local small corps. Today at shows you see band jackets from all over the area, as they attend by the busloads.

I don't think that recognizing that diminishes what Steve Vickers wrote; it adds to the picture.

One of the best things about DCP is we have people with totally different perspectives looking at the same issue. Of course we can get totally different opinions on them. FYI: Mike has that GSC background that I know nothing about and I have a small Sr corps circuit and DCA background.

See your point Mike and agree that it was a part of the picture. Question I would have is "If there was a big drop off in the early 90s, why was it a big drop off and not gradual as corps died off?". Looked at Vickers write up last night and in a nut shell it said:

1991 - audience grumbling about esoteric (that's the word used) shows

1992 - fans/DCI celebrate DCIs 20th Anniversary

1993 - Anniversary fun over and crap hits the fan with audience discontent

Sure there is generalizing here by both SV and myself, but Steve had a lot of stuff to cover in 430+ pages.... (that's why there is a Volume 2 ).

Edited February 26, 2010 by JimF-3rdBari

[audiodb]

Glory is correct, IMO. At any class 'A' show back in the day you'd see lots of small corps jackets of members from corps all over the tri-state area. My friends and I used to go to those shows when we marched a GSC corps in 68/69, and there would be all sorts of corps jackets on kids in the stands. Those corps gradually died off, leaving fewer small corps members to make up part of the audience...IMO that is another way the HS band members have become the replacements for the old local small corps. Today at shows you see band jackets from all over the area, as they attend by the busloads.

And it is important to note how this growing population of band kids in past decades had the choice of whether to attend drum corps contests or band contests (back when summer marching band was still prevalent in all time zones)....and they showed a distinct preference for drum corps over band.

[MikeD]

And it is important to note how this growing population of band kids in past decades had the choice of whether to attend drum corps contests or band contests (back when summer marching band was still prevalent in all time zones)....and they showed a distinct preference for drum corps over band.

They go to see the best...BD, Cadets, Cavies, Crown, etc....that wouldn't change if they had WW. They did not choose to see...or march with...lower-level local corps in that same timeframe either.

[audiodb]

The point being that you just can't use numbers like that as a sign of dissatisfaction, or satisfaction, or anything.

Funny....you never object to this when it agrees with your POV, only when it doesn't.

Sorry, Mike, but most things are not so simple as one cause - one effect. Your dismissal of every opposing POV on that basis serves only as a deterrent to intelligent conversation.

There are lots of variables that make up why attendance is what it is, or was what it was.

Fine....then state your opinion on what they are, and allow others to state their opinions too. Don't just nullify the whole discussion by suddenly contending that numbers can't prove anything at all.

[audiodb]

Well, one way to continue to attract even more band kids is to add WW...not the only way, but one way, and one that George seems to think is a good way.

Why would woodwinds attract more band kids to drum corps shows? What proof can you offer to support this hypothesis?

Do you even know that Hopkins believes this? His words only infer it, speaking continually of "aligning with bands", but not specifically about what cause-and-effect he expects from it.

[MikeD]

Funny....you never object to this when it agrees with your POV, only when it doesn't.

Sorry, Mike, but most things are not so simple as one cause - one effect. Your dismissal of every opposing POV on that basis serves only as a deterrent to intelligent conversation.

Where do I claim they are one cause, one effect. I don't agree that what you are postulating IS a cause, but I never claimed there is just one.

Fine....then state your opinion on what they are, and allow others to state their opinions too. Don't just nullify the whole discussion by suddenly contending that numbers can't prove anything at all.

I always state MHO...as do you. Where is the problem with that? What I do not do is try and make it seem as if my opinion can be transferred to anyone else.

[MikeD]

Why would woodwinds attract more band kids to drum corps shows? What proof can you offer to support this hypothesis?

Do you even know that Hopkins believes this? His words only infer it, speaking continually of "aligning with bands", but not specifically about what cause-and-effect he expects from it.

Note that I said 'seems'...it's my take on reading what he has written and proposed over time, nothing more.

[audiodb]

When I said "peak" of course I didn't mean all-time peak for 2007. That much should have been clear from my other references to the drop off since the early 80s.

But there have been other DCI finals since the early '80s that outdrew 2007, so it wasn't as clear to me.

2007 nonetheless was a peak, and what's important is I offered it solely as an example of the perils of extrapolating too much meaning from any single data point. That's the point.

A point we share, evidently.

Now about the composition of the crowd...

If I'm wrong about who attends shows (I say mostly family, friends and former members),

....um, yeah, you are wrong. Drum corps shows draw plenty of other fans with no such affiliations, and other people who are not ardent fans and only attend occasional shows because they're local, or they're looking for a change of pace one random summer evening, or because they saw the promotional efforts of DCI and/or the local show sponsor and decided to check it out....

then how do you explain the declining attendance in drum corps prior to amp or even Bb.

Oh, there are a number of possible factors. Most have been pointed out here already. Your own theory on less corps leading to less audience has some merit....I just don't agree with how you presented it.

One that I find compelling is the competitive stagnation that took hold circa 1980....everyone I know that has lost interest in drum corps cites that as a reason, and no other factor is a common thread among all these people. And the timing fits.

Ticket prices are a factor we sometimes forget. As drum corps became more costly (partly due to self-inflicted effects of increasing touring and equipment), some of those costs were passed onto the ticket buyer. I imagine a few people balked at rising ticket prices over the years.

There may have been a perceptable downtrend circa 1993 due to the obscure shows (I don't think this is a big factor, but I don't have much data handy to dispute it either).

Other changes to the fundamental nature of the activity have shed fans. The loss of the military and/or patriotic influence, introduction of less conventional costuming, grounding percussion and the ever-growing pit, and other changes have resulted in losses. Some diehard fans have left as the activity crossed their personal line in the sand, while other casual fans may have lost interest when their favorite aspect of the spectacle faded away.

I will tell you why all those fans stopped coming. The great crowds of the 70s and 80s dissolved when the corps they grew up with dissolved. It's that simple - and that sad.

No, it's not that simple. But I will agree that over the long term, a smaller participant base will cause a deduction from the audience base. One more reason why preserving more corps over the years would have been a good idea.