Pirated finals videos

[Dave]

And quality isn't the issue. It's simply copyright, that the creator of whatever idea is in question (in this case, a composer of a piece of music) gets to decide where and how it is arranged, performed, recorded and distributed. If DCI is seen as undermining that fundamental tenet of copyright law, it could bode very poorly for future attempts to secure copyright permissions. Hardcore fan or not, personal use or posting all over YouTube, the point is that the laws on this exist to protect composers and performers alike and it's not relevant what your intent is when making your own recordings.

[byline]

And quality isn't the issue. It's simply copyright, that the creator of whatever idea is in question (in this case, a composer of a piece of music) gets to decide where and how it is arranged, performed, recorded and distributed. If DCI is seen as undermining that fundamental tenet of copyright law, it could bode very poorly for future attempts to secure copyright permissions. Hardcore fan or not, personal use or posting all over YouTube, the point is that the laws on this exist to protect composers and performers alike and it's not relevant what your intent is when making your own recordings.

Exactly. This is a perfect summary of the spirit of copyright law.

[year1buick]

Maybe one of the legal eagles that frequent the forum can correct me on this, but it was my understanding that if you were to simply record--and not subsequently copy or distribute-- a performance from the stands, you wouldn't be breaking the law, per se, but would be in violation of your ticket agreement.

I've seen similar instances reported where trademark holders--such as stadium owners-- have tried to prevent or even seize photos taken of their trademarked venue. However, simply taking the photo isn't a violation--you'd have to actually publish it, etc. The only thing they could legally do to prevent you from taking the photo is if you were to do it while on their actual premises. (Or somehow break the another law while doing it, such as creating a public disturbance, etc...) Similarly, in regards to DCI shows, the contest organizers could kick you out for recording from the stands (again, because it violates the ticket agreement) but if you were to make a recording from the sidewalk next to the stadium, there isn't jack squat they could do about it, unless you posted it online or otherwise distributed it.

Again, this is just my understanding. Attorneys reading along--please correct me. (I'd genuinely like to hear a ruling on this. )

[trionbd]

Not the point.

Bootleg video has a negative economic impact on DCI and on us. Bootleg raises the price of the geniune video to the extent that DCI and the corps waste money policing illegal copies on YouTube and other sites. Bootleg raises the price of genuine videos every time any single person decides to be content with the bootleg rather than pay for genuine. Any copies he provides his friends has the effect raising my price and yours yet again.

It's difficult to quantify the impact, which is why it feels harmless. But it's not.

HH

I was just commenting on a much earlier post, but didn't want to scroll back through the 25 pages to find it.

I totally understand the point you're making. There might be an occasional person that would listen to the bootleg instead of buying the real deal. By occasional, I mean almost no one. Pretty much every person I've ever known that has recorded at a show also has a fully stocked library of DCI videos and cd's. As I stated before, most of these folks are your die hard fan. It's not like they aren't out there spending their money on the activity. They are buying tickets, many times it's the best seat money can buy. They are spending money at the souvie booths. They probably marched. They live for drum corps.

If it makes people angry because it says on the ticket that you shouldn't do it, then I really think that they should lighten up. The person sitting over your shoulder isn't a threat to the cost of your DCI experience. They are probably spending more on the activity than you.

[corps-mudgeon]

Maybe one of the legal eagles that frequent the forum can correct me on this, but it was my understanding that if you were to simply record--and not subsequently copy or distribute-- a performance from the stands, you wouldn't be breaking the law, per se, but would be in violation of your ticket agreement.

I've seen similar instances reported where trademark holders--such as stadium owners-- have tried to prevent or even seize photos taken of their trademarked venue. However, simply taking the photo isn't a violation--you'd have to actually publish it, etc. The only thing they could legally do to prevent you from taking the photo is if you were to do it while on their actual premises. (Or somehow break the another law while doing it, such as creating a public disturbance, etc...) Similarly, in regards to DCI shows, the contest organizers could kick you out for recording from the stands (again, because it violates the ticket agreement) but if you were to make a recording from the sidewalk next to the stadium, there isn't jack squat they could do about it, unless you posted it online or otherwise distributed it.

Again, this is just my understanding. Attorneys reading along--please correct me. (I'd genuinely like to hear a ruling on this. )

This is a good summary of my own inexpert understanding. Like you, I'd like to hear a true expert opinion on this, but I suspect most true experts aren't going to give an opinion without being paid for it, and when they do, the opinion may be a function of who's doing the paying.

[Dave]

I was just commenting on a much earlier post, but didn't want to scroll back through the 25 pages to find it.

I totally understand the point you're making. There might be an occasional person that would listen to the bootleg instead of buying the real deal. By occasional, I mean almost no one. Pretty much every person I've ever known that has recorded at a show also has a fully stocked library of DCI videos and cd's. As I stated before, most of these folks are your die hard fan. It's not like they aren't out there spending their money on the activity. They are buying tickets, many times it's the best seat money can buy. They are spending money at the souvie booths. They probably marched. They live for drum corps.

If it makes people angry because it says on the ticket that you shouldn't do it, then I really think that they should lighten up. The person sitting over your shoulder isn't a threat to the cost of your DCI experience. They are probably spending more on the activity than you.

But again: none of that has any relevance on copyright law, what it is or why it exists. All those things are great but don't change the reality of the law or the potential implications for future permissions efforts on DCI's parts.

[trionbd]

But again: none of that has any relevance on copyright law, what it is or why it exists. All those things are great but don't change the reality of the law or the potential implications for future permissions efforts on DCI's parts.

I can't really speak to the implications of the future permissions, but I was under the impression that copyright laws are there so that the person who's creative idea is being recorded get's the money and credit they are do for said creation. I'm only saying that they aren't losing money because of some fan recording a performance. And they aren't losing credit because of the recording either. The composer and arrangers names are listed for every fan to see on every program sold, on each corps website, on drumcorpsplanet.com, on dci.org, on corpsreps.com, and on the screen at every venue large enough to have one.

The original post for this topic was about how angry the person was that there was someone recording a show. They were so incensed that they were contemplating have the person removed from the stadium on finals night, and showing out in front of their 10 year old. Many more people after this were ranting about how it was insulting to the fans that pay for recordings. My point is that while it is illegal, I have a hard time believing that the cost of recordings or permission to perform a composers music are being effected in DCI. So my message to the original poster and to all others who feel morally and lawfully wronged by such acts...don't cause a scene at a drum corps show. You can split hairs all day about the implications it has on you, but the reality is that the person with the recording device adores drum corps as much as you. I have a hard time believing that you would really want to be the person responsible for kicking someone out of a drumcorps show. And at Finals of all places. You wouldn't be the hero in that situation at all.

I do hope however that it becomes legal to turn to the person who won't stop talking during performances, punch them squarely in the nose, drag them down the row and up the aisle by their hair, encourage others to kick them as they pass, and throw them out the gate with a police escort waiting for them. But that's just me.

[JimF-LowBari]

And quality isn't the issue. It's simply copyright, that the creator of whatever idea is in question (in this case, a composer of a piece of music) gets to decide where and how it is arranged, performed, recorded and distributed. If DCI is seen as undermining that fundamental tenet of copyright law, it could bode very poorly for future attempts to secure copyright permissions. Hardcore fan or not, personal use or posting all over YouTube, the point is that the laws on this exist to protect composers and performers alike and it's not relevant what your intent is when making your own recordings.

And if things go to trial (or at least the lawyers) DCI needs to be in a position where they can say they tried to protect the copyrighted works. in this case, having YouTube remove vids and not allowing recording devices at a show would be examples of trying to protect.

[cavies98]

I would have done nothing. Chances are this guy wasn't going to sell the recording he made. He just wanted to be able to enjoy the show personally afterward. I have no problem with this. In fact, I recorded maybe a dozen shows and rehearsals between 2000 and 2005 using my minidisc recorder. I never shared the recordings with anyone (although I would love to now, I've got some AWESOME shows I'd be happy to give to you all for free) and I never sold them. I simply recorded the shows for my own pleasure. I've purchased the finals CDs every year since 1995.

I'm listening to Asphalt Cocktail so I'm in the perfect mood to bring up something that has stuck in my craw since Finals night.

But first, does anyone remember how the seats in the Can are numbered? Sitting in a section do the seat numbers increase from right to left or left to right?

Now, Finals night. I've got my 10 year old with me and we're settling in for the show. I'm getting situated. I happen to turn around and see a guy standing two rows back, right behind me, yakking with his friends. Just then I happened to notice that he's got a nice, small, obviously digital Sony Handycam in his hand. I actually stared at it for a moment, almost in disbelief, to make sure it was a video camera. There was no doubt in my mind.

I looked up at him and he wasn't paying any attention to me or my evil, glaring stare. In that two-tenths of a second I knew I should confront him sternly about it, then second-guessed myself ("What if he says, 'Yes, I'm going to record the whole show."), then I turned and sat down. I fumed about it for a few minutes and almost got up and in his face but, ultimately, I decided to shut up, enjoy the show, and not make a scene about it. I even considered getting a stadium staff member but there were none in sight.

I've never forgotten my 50-year-old wussiness (I don't typically back down easily) and have since regretted not saying something.

So, should I have?

What would you have done?

What WILL you do?

[cavies98]

In agreement with you 100%!

I was just commenting on a much earlier post, but didn't want to scroll back through the 25 pages to find it.

I totally understand the point you're making. There might be an occasional person that would listen to the bootleg instead of buying the real deal. By occasional, I mean almost no one. Pretty much every person I've ever known that has recorded at a show also has a fully stocked library of DCI videos and cd's. As I stated before, most of these folks are your die hard fan. It's not like they aren't out there spending their money on the activity. They are buying tickets, many times it's the best seat money can buy. They are spending money at the souvie booths. They probably marched. They live for drum corps.

If it makes people angry because it says on the ticket that you shouldn't do it, then I really think that they should lighten up. The person sitting over your shoulder isn't a threat to the cost of your DCI experience. They are probably spending more on the activity than you.