Reverse the Rules

[perc2100]

Upon reading this, Mike D. says everything is going very well. On another forum, I asked the question "isn't DCI making enough money as it is?". The answer is no.

So if everything is hunky-dory, why are there less corps, with insane competitions to get a spot (from many other regions), and DCI not making enough money.

From what I understand they went from G Bugles to make the transition easier from band. (Even though the G Bugles have more power on the field), and made the pit crazy big.

With all the expenses with the new technology, corps won't be able to fully compete unless they get the goods for free. The haves have more, while the have nots, have not.

Thin down the pit. Make one instrument for each voice, (one keyboard per type), and get rid of cymbals, drumsets, drums, basses and ANYTHING THAT'S ON THE FIELD in the pit. Tune the drums to SOUND LIKE DRUMS. This would lessen expenses and would make the powers that be have to come up with better ideas. No electronics, no narration (unless it's not miked).

Bring back the tic system. C'mon the criteria is so subjective nowadays it's hard to say who won or lost. (Did the Blue Devils guard do their routine with the chairs exactly in unison?) Make the corps earn the score.

Bring back Drum Solos. Yes, I"m a drummer, but the way the shows are written, the only way to see world championship drumming is to watch the parking lot. The drummers would love it too.

Recognizable tunes that don't go at light speed. Let people enjoy the show instead of trying to keep up.

If DCI wants to do Broadway on the field, then do it and get rid of the drums and horns (since there are synths), and they can keep their DCI name.

Then there could be another circut for lower cost, more pure Drum Corps for more kids to have the opportunity to perform. (Kids who come off the street to learn to play.) That could be Drum and Bugle Corps.

Remember, if you want "no limits", you limit how many groups/people can play. Don't change just for the sake of change.

I'm sure you're aware of this, but there is this thing called Fan Network where we can ALL relive past great shows (as well as modern shows). All of the things you list can be found on the videos from the 70's-early 80's.

[markdewine]

perc2100- The conversation I related concerning the judge, was in fact, accurate.

And yeah, I'd say you're essentially correct that a '70's show probably wouldn't meet the criteria for various aspects of demand. But only because the criteria have been changed over the years, by the "artistic" show designers.

Whereas now the demand includes "dance" and "movement" it used to mean "military bearing" or playing extremely difficult brass charts on a V/R bugle. In today's drum corps, there are numerous tricks learned thru the years, to hide mistakes, or at least make them less noticable. BITD, corps used to put it out there, "in your face". The focus seemed to be on not MAKING mistakes, as opposed to HIDING them.

In any case, it's sad that a retro-show would get such a lack of consideration from the judging community. I remember now, that back around the time I spoke with this judge, I went to a winter guard show. During the intermission, there was a group that took the floor, and presented a '70s style guard show. The crowd reaction was insane! The applause was louder and longer than for any other group at the contest.

But.....to hear some here on DCP...NO ONE likes the old-style.

[MikeD]

perc2100- The conversation I related concerning the judge, was in fact, accurate.

And yeah, I'd say you're essentially correct that a '70's show probably wouldn't meet the criteria for various aspects of demand. But only because the criteria have been changed over the years, by the "artistic" show designers.

The criteria changed all the time...even pre-DCI. There were multiple combinations of sheets, depending on which show you were at. At the 1971 VFW Nats, for example, there was still the 'cadence' 10-point caption, and GE was a 10 point caption, while the 1971 World Open had a 30 point GE caption and no cadence caption.

Whereas now the demand includes "dance" and "movement" it used to mean "military bearing" or playing extremely difficult brass charts on a V/R bugle. In today's drum corps, there are numerous tricks learned thru the years, to hide mistakes, or at least make them less noticable. BITD, corps used to put it out there, "in your face". The focus seemed to be on not MAKING mistakes, as opposed to HIDING them.

Pre-DCI Corps hid errors all the time, and took the garden hose to their shows, as we used to say, to eliminate ticks as the season progressed.

In any case, it's sad that a retro-show would get such a lack of consideration from the judging community. I remember now, that back around the time I spoke with this judge, I went to a winter guard show. During the intermission, there was a group that took the floor, and presented a '70s style guard show. The crowd reaction was insane! The applause was louder and longer than for any other group at the contest.

It's not sad at all...it's changing times. What corps do today is far more demanding from top to bottom than back then. Those shows, as great as they were THEN, just would not provide enough challenge to maximize performance scores, and in Effect, they were very stagnant and slow as compared to the modern shows. Back then, of course, they were state of the art. None of that has anything at all to do with 'liking' the old shows...you are talking about scoring them, which is different. I can LIKE something yet still not think it deserves a high score as a judge...and vice versa.

[BRASSO]

I would be okay with either of the two following set ups:

Late 80's-90's: G Brass, grounded pit, 128 members, no amps, no ticks.

2000-2003: Multi-key brass, grounded pit, 135 members, no amps, no ticks.

I don't support amps or the increase to 150 members.

I 'd be for these changes in the activity. I also think judges need to be brought into the 21st century regarding the use of technology in their evaluations and scoring. What's up with the pencils and paper ? Time to put some computers up in the booth, especially at regionals, maybe allow a judge to quickly rewind and replay a visual set to see if was executed well or not, and things like that. With the speed of these shows today, the naked eye needs help sometimes. There's LOTS that judges could do with computers in the booth in terms of asistance in evaluating and contrasting Corps, quickly tabulating their scores, and getting overall results to the Chief Judge, and then quickly to audiences. The way judges judge in a transactional way has really not changed much since the 70's. Do judges know that computers have replaced paper and pencil..... oh, about 30 years go ?.

I also think it's ludicrous for a show designer to have to EXPLAIN his show theme, music, visual to a judge before the season, so that the judge " gets it ". Man, what a stupid and backward concept. If your show theme is not conveyed in a coherent and appealing way to a JUDGE on the field of competition, then the show theme is disjointed and incoherent.... and should be judged as such. A show by a show producer or performer needs to be " sold " on the stage ( ie field ), not with the critic ( or in the case of DCI, the judge ) at some bistro over cocktails down the street from the theatre before the show opens on Broadway (or before the competition season in the case of DCI ).

Edited February 16, 2010 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

honestly. instant replay would add huge costs, and would delay shows. some judges now barely get done the recap, notes, tote sheet and score sheet before the next corps is going, even with preshows.

and if you cant have replay at all shows, then why bother at all? these guys see these shows enough, they don't need replay. it's not like you're looking to see if the catch was inbounds or if they got the ball over the white line to score

[BRASSO]

honestly. instant replay would add huge costs, and would delay shows. some judges now barely get done the recap, notes, tote sheet and score sheet before the next corps is going, even with preshows.

and if you cant have replay at all shows, then why bother at all? these guys see these shows enough, they don't need replay. it's not like you're looking to see if the catch was inbounds or if they got the ball over the white line to score

DCI has allowed all manner of expensive musical toys on the field since the 70's. What's a computer cost ? Do we want to rush judges, or have them " get it right " ? If you fall on the side of " quickness " then haaving judges do their transactions pretty much the way they have done it since the 60's will still work.

But the notion that a rewind can't be done in a timely manner as an optiion for a judge to use on occasion doesn't seem to be all that time consuming, particularly if one favors " getting it right" over " getting the score out quickly".

If people think that visual judges eyesight can take in all that's on the field and determine that al the visual formations and patterns were ( or wern't ) executed well, then they have more faith in a judges ability to absorb it all, better than I do. I acknowledge judges have great training, knowledge, experience,..... but I 'm not aware of improvements in eyesight abilities of humans that have been advanced by science that allows visual judges to take it all in. But who knows, perhaps their visual eye speed is way better than us mere mortal humans, and they CAN take it all in, and a rewind wouldn't be needed, as the visual judge sees all that's happening on the field.

Edited February 16, 2010 by BRASSO

[SkyDog]

I personally don't want to push all rules back to x year and set it in stone. What I do want is two very simple rules that help define what Drum and Bugle Corps is.

1. All sounds generated on the field are acoustic.

2. Instrumentation is limited to bell-front valved brass and percussion.

Now you can feel free to sing, dance, play Bb, narrate... go nuts! Find creative ways to make your ideas come to life and reach the ears of the audience and judges.

I like the way you think. Simple rules that keep the activity's identity intact while allowing creativity.

Eliminate pit.

Simplifies logistics. And marching keyboards are cheaper than concert types.

Cheaper isn't always better. Marching keyboards sound like crap, weigh a metric ton, and aren't conducive to good technique. If we're going to allow keyboards at all, please for the love of God, use real ones.

[audiodb]

I 'd be for these changes in the activity. I also think judges need to be brought into the 21st century regarding the use of technology in their evaluations and scoring. What's up with the pencils and paper ?

I think it's for accountability. If a score is questioned, there's a paper trail. Very little handwriting takes place, though....most of the judging commentary is done via voice recording.

[Fred Windish]

BRASSO-

I appreciate and concur with your earlier statement (below)

"I also think it's ludicrous for a show designer to have to EXPLAIN his show theme, music, visual to a judge before the season, so that the judge " gets it ". Man, what a stupid and backward concept. If your show theme is not conveyed in a coherent and appealing way to a JUDGE on the field of competition, then the show theme is disjointed and incoherent.... and should be judged as such. A show by a show producer or performer needs to be " sold " on the stage ( ie field ), not with the critic ( or in the case of DCI, the judge ) at some bistro over cocktails down the street from the theatre before the show opens on Broadway (or before the competition season in the case of DCI )."

You nailed one of the reasons why the current activity seems so astray. If a judge, someone who has extensive exposure to where this activity is (and was), needs to be led by the hand through the presentation, one can only imagine how difficult it must be for a regular paying customer to fully appreciate and be positively moved by what's provided.

Seems to me, if too many of our customers leave saying "It was good, but I didn't really get it," our potential for growth is limited.

I'm not too much a fan of great ballet. During my 59 years, I can't remember ever wanting to purchase a ticket to see it live. I also know great ballet is not presented in the same manner, with the same results as, say, pro football. Ballet is a more intimate experience, but for a far smaller consumer base.

But . . .

in answer to this topic's challenge, I'd say any performance from the late seventies to the late eighties.

Please don't misinterpret. I am convinced DCI will find a formula that will again work for me. I'm thinking that's when DCI's directors realize moving through the elusive "final frontier" requires it to present itself somewhere OTHER than a football field.

[Jeff Ream]

DCI has allowed all manner of expensive musical toys on the field since the 70's. What's a computer cost ? Do we want to rush judges, or have them " get it right " ? If you fall on the side of " quickness " then haaving judges do their transactions pretty much the way they have done it since the 60's will still work.

it's not just the computers. you're required then to have camera men at all of these shows...and you know you have to have multiple angles and views. so factor in not just computers, but cameras, the tech stuff needed to get the video to the computers, the cost of transporting it, paying for the camera crews.

and IMO, the judges get it pretty right. Not always, but more often than not.

But the notion that a rewind can't be done in a timely manner as an optiion for a judge to use on occasion doesn't seem to be all that time consuming, particularly if one favors " getting it right" over " getting the score out quickly".

If people think that visual judges eyesight can take in all that's on the field and determine that al the visual formations and patterns were ( or wern't ) executed well, then they have more faith in a judges ability to absorb it all, better than I do. I acknowledge judges have great training, knowledge, experience,..... but I 'm not aware of improvements in eyesight abilities of humans that have been advanced by science that allows visual judges to take it all in. But who knows, perhaps their visual eye speed is way better than us mere mortal humans, and they CAN take it all in, and a rewind wouldn't be needed, as the visual judge sees all that's happening on the field.

thats why the judges by finals see everyone multiple times. And any good judges will not just keep going to the same spot time after time after time in their evaluation. They will adjust their focus show by show. Sure they may revisit some spots. With the amount of times they see a corps, it's hard not to...but that's a good thing

and let's be honest...instant replay in any sport is still not perfect. In fact, sometimes it can make things worse