Comment at Winter Olympics II

[CrunchyTenor]

This is a sister thread to the one regarding color guard. First, let me restate the intial thought process that went into the thread.

A commentator at the Pairs Skating long program at the Winter Olympics made a statement regarding the pairs skaters putting so many moves into their programs that they just can't perfect them in the time needed before big competitions, therefore they lack execution.

This made me think of several discussions on RAMD and DCP regarding visual demands versus music. Do we ask to much from the corps members to execute increased drill demands vs music execution, and even how arrangements are done to accomodate the visual aspect of the show?

Legacy alumni (myself included) lament the lack of detailed execution of drill moves, while current marchers cite increased demand from velocity. Legacy people cite the demands of squad marching (which had it's own kind of demand), and current members are asked to execute with variable tempos, jazz running and 200 bpm.

But at what price? Musical lines are diluted for the sake of speed and drill demand. Arrangements suffer musically, even though we are reminded constantly that today's musicians are superior. Is there any wiggle room here? Are corps going to be constantly challenged to do more, higher, and faster until they're just not able to execute the drill or the music, or both? Where do we draw the line between increased demands and decreased execution? Is there a line to be drawn? Or do we continue down this path of unrecognizable melodic lines and less than perfect visual execution.

as in the other thread, I recognize the potential for then vs now arguments and flame wars. In the event that is where this thread goes, I will ask the moderators to shut it down. Think before you post, read everything before you respond, and please keep it civil. So, what do you think?

Garry in Vegas

[84BDsop]

I can't comment on the guard, but for the musical side, there IS only so fast the fingers and feet can move...we might be approaching or at the limit of that element of music...definitely in brass....percussion might have a few more bpm to cram in. Would I be right in presuming that the advent of kevlar heads lead to the ability to have faster tempos and rudiments in the battery?

Same holds true for the feet...only so long of a step you can take, even in a jazz run...and the musicality has a potential to suffer of technique isn't spot on.

I think, perhaps, if that realization sinks in to designers, we might be a pullback of the hyperspeed type of drill. I hate ot say it, but synths may actually help that along...but I'd rather see it without electronics pushing that change.

[corpsband]

Do we ask to much from the corps members to execute increased drill demands vs music execution, and even how arrangements are done to accomodate the visual aspect of the show?

There is a definite loss in precision of the mechanical aspects of the lower body movement. Things like identical toe lift and completely identical roll step technique are not present to the same degree in todays marchers. I'm not suggesting that marchers today don't have good technique and uniform style -- they do. It's just not quite as mechanically precise as that which may be found earlier in drum corps.

OTOH I think vocabulary is so dramatically expanded for todays performers that I'm willing to say "who cares" about that mechanistic precision. What performers do today is IMHO much more exciting and interesting than the old school military style marching.

I still enjoy the heck out the Marine Silent Drill Team! But I'm not eager to go back to that style in modern marching.

Musical lines are diluted for the sake of speed and drill demand.

I disagree. While I may not like the 'cut and slash" arranging style of some corps I don't think there's been a dilution in the demand of the musical books. In fact I think today's drum corps are in many respects a brass master class that lasts all summer. Todays kids are much better musicians than *most* (not all) of those who marched in the past.

[CrunchyTenor]

There is a definite loss in precision of the mechanical aspects of the lower body movement. Things like identical toe lift and completely identical roll step technique are not present to the same degree in todays marchers. I'm not suggesting that marchers today don't have good technique and uniform style -- they do. It's just not quite as mechanically precise as that which may be found earlier in drum corps.

OTOH I think vocabulary is so dramatically expanded for todays performers that I'm willing to say "who cares" about that mechanistic precision. What performers do today is IMHO much more exciting and interesting than the old school military style marching.

I think this is the crux of the discussion. Who cares? I can't even conceptualize that. IMO, substance should always outweigh flash. This is what the pairs skater commentator was saying, too. That they are trying to do too much to execute it well.

I still enjoy the heck out the Marine Silent Drill Team! But I'm not eager to go back to that style in modern marching.

I disagree. While I may not like the 'cut and slash" arranging style of some corps I don't think there's been a dilution in the demand of the musical books. In fact I think today's drum corps are in many respects a brass master class that lasts all summer. Todays kids are much better musicians than *most* (not all) of those who marched in the past.

It's pretty much a given that most corps members come in with more experience than previous generations, but they are also concentrated into less corps. Plus, the average age of World Class corps is two to three years higher than in the 70's. That's a lot of notes! And that makes for a more experienced, better player.

So, if they are that much better, why cut and slash arrangements?

Thanks for your comments!

I can't comment on the guard, but for the musical side, there IS only so fast the fingers and feet can move...we might be approaching or at the limit of that element of music...definitely in brass....percussion might have a few more bpm to cram in. Would I be right in presuming that the advent of kevlar heads lead to the ability to have faster tempos and rudiments in the battery?

If that were true, Sam, why is a typical double stroke roll composed of sixteeth notes instead of thirty-second notes? And there are actually less rudiments, though the ones used are more contemporary hybrid rudiments. We were still using the 26 standard rudiments (with some additions) when I was drumming!

Same holds true for the feet...only so long of a step you can take, even in a jazz run...and the musicality has a potential to suffer if technique isn't spot on.

I think, perhaps, if that realization sinks in to designers, we might be a pullback of the hyperspeed type of drill. I hate ot say it, but synths may actually help that along...but I'd rather see it without electronics pushing that change.

We can only hope they will consider musicality sooner rather than later, but i can guarantee that the synth isn't the saviour of drum corps. The sooner they realize THAT, the better off we'll be.

Garry in Vegas

Edited February 16, 2010 by CrunchyTenor

[craiga]

This is a thought-provoking discussion, but even as a "Legacy Fan" (I joined drum corps in 1979) I have to disagree with your primary premise. Yes, I DO watch my Legacy DVDs with great fondness. In fact, 1980 27th Lancers and Blue Devils are two of my favorites.

That being said, I cannot agree that these corps marched better than the current performers. In fact, it's not even close. While I agree that from an ensemble standpoint, the 70's drills were quite clean, they were also very simple. Yes, the intervals were usually pretty solid by finals, but look at the marching members....the upper body posture was terrible in many cases, with kids leaning back, hunched over, and torso control not at all evident much of the time. Check out Legacy DVDs for 77,78,79 & 80.

I had the priviledge of spending five weeks on the road last summer with Boston. and the degree to which their visual staff worked on movement/body control/lower body technique/upper body technique was mind blowing......the attention to these details began at the winter camps and extended right through finals week. And, I am confident that the other corps around BAC like Blue Stars and Phantom probably had the same kind of focus.

It is also misleading (albeit unintentional) to suggest that modern drill lacks the crispness of 30 years ago. True, the guards were more visceral and staccato in a military-precison manner (which I enjoy, btw), but the visual designs then were frequently static and very slow to evolve when moving.....not to mention the standstill concert piece. I truly think that some of the geometric, rotating forms we see now from contemporary corps are executed at an incredibly high level.

I have said before that I think some "Legacy fans" ( not necessarily you, Garry ) should spend a week hanging with or traveling with the 2010 corps of their choice.....to see first hand how kids are taught and the level of accountability they have now, and they would feel a whole lot better about the direction of our activity. As a visual guy, I honor and cherish our common drum corps roots, but I absolutely love the level the corps are at now.

Edited February 16, 2010 by craiga

[luvs me sum mello!]

Really?! Man, DCPers will take ANY excuse to get back on this old conversation again....

Support the corps you like, respect the ones you don't. If you're an alumni of the corps you have issues with, send a letter. Other then that, sit back and enjoy There are some amazing things going on in DCI in this age if you just take the time to stop complaining and see it.

[TomPeashey]

This is a sister thread to the one regarding color guard. First, let me restate the intial thought process that went into the thread.

A commentator at the Pairs Skating long program at the Winter Olympics made a statement regarding the pairs skaters putting so many moves into their programs that they just can't perfect them in the time needed before big competitions, therefore they lack execution.

This made me think of several discussions on RAMD and DCP regarding visual demands versus music. Do we ask to much from the corps members to execute increased drill demands vs music execution, and even how arrangements are done to accomodate the visual aspect of the show?

Legacy alumni (myself included) lament the lack of detailed execution of drill moves, while current marchers cite increased demand from velocity. Legacy people cite the demands of squad marching (which had it's own kind of demand), and current members are asked to execute with variable tempos, jazz running and 200 bpm.

But at what price? Musical lines are diluted for the sake of speed and drill demand. Arrangements suffer musically, even though we are reminded constantly that today's musicians are superior. Is there any wiggle room here? Are corps going to be constantly challenged to do more, higher, and faster until they're just not able to execute the drill or the music, or both? Where do we draw the line between increased demands and decreased execution? Is there a line to be drawn? Or do we continue down this path of unrecognizable melodic lines and less than perfect visual execution.

as in the other thread, I recognize the potential for then vs now arguments and flame wars. In the event that is where this thread goes, I will ask the moderators to shut it down. Think before you post, read everything before you respond, and please keep it civil. So, what do you think?

Garry in Vegas

Garry... drum corps does a better job with musicality than skating... you do NOT want to watch olympic skating with me as I sit there and am screaming at the TV ... like when the music changes in the mid

dle of a spin or something... obviously, musicality isn't as important to those judges - HOWEVER, in a couple of instances where it got very bad, the expert commentators did say that musically they were weak.

Any Visual interpretation of music is the ability of the mind to relate to what they are seeing vs what they are viewing... drum corps and color guard are based on this and overall do extremely well... figure skating would be much more audience friendly and see increased audience size if they did fewer tricks and paid MUCH more attention to the music.

[BRASSO]

It's pretty much a given that most corps members come in with more experience than previous generations, but they are also concentrated into less corps. Plus, the average age of World Class corps is two to three years higher than in the 70's. That's a lot of notes! And that makes for a more experienced, better player.

I'm not s sure where one gets the data to support the position that " the average age of the World Class Corps is 2 to three years higher than in the 70's ". ( even with the increased age limit instituted by DCI to 22 of late)

I would postit that Corps from placement positions ( say ) of 8th to 21st in the 70's were of overall HIGHER average age than Corps in placement positions of 8-21st today. ( and I'm not even referring to the regular use of overage members that was more prevalent in the 70's era either).

Edited February 16, 2010 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

I can't comment on the guard, but for the musical side, there IS only so fast the fingers and feet can move...we might be approaching or at the limit of that element of music...definitely in brass....percussion might have a few more bpm to cram in. Would I be right in presuming that the advent of kevlar heads lead to the ability to have faster tempos and rudiments in the battery?

Same holds true for the feet...only so long of a step you can take, even in a jazz run...and the musicality has a potential to suffer of technique isn't spot on.

I think, perhaps, if that realization sinks in to designers, we might be a pullback of the hyperspeed type of drill. I hate ot say it, but synths may actually help that along...but I'd rather see it without electronics pushing that change.

the problem I see is that way too much visual credit is given on the music sheets, and on the visual side, they rarely give credit for any kind of musical demands on the performer.

I also think from a scoring perspective, too often the performance number is too close to the book number just because. Hey if someone is trying stuff that deserves and 8.8, but they aren't achieving it, they shouldn't get that 8.6.

or...better put...if they aren't achieving it, since you have to link the what and how, if the how isn't there, the what should be lower, but there will be hell to pay if you don't give the full credit for book.

we've become too focused on the demand, and not enough on how the demand is performed.

even judging on the high school level, all you hear as a judge is "well we're trying this and this and that etc" and the answer is "but you aren't achieving any of it".

The shame is people don't get that at all levels

[Dave]

I disagree. While I may not like the 'cut and slash" arranging style of some corps I don't think there's been a dilution in the demand of the musical books. In fact I think today's drum corps are in many respects a brass master class that lasts all summer. Todays kids are much better musicians than *most* (not all) of those who marched in the past.

Well, he didn't say dilution of demand, he said dilution of the musical line, and I have to agree. I would hold up as my own exhibits the difference between Devils 97 and Devils 98. 97 had its punchy moments but they were there for emphasis; strong melodic lines still dominated their arranging. Beginning in 98 it's like they shifted gears into the "chop and bop" style they continue to use now, no real melodic lines to carry across a long phrase.