New tour concept for 2011 proposed

[Jeff Ream]

I can't. Even after reading this entire thread I haven't been convinced. You speak of faith, but your complaint presumes a great many things. First and foremost, you're awfully quick to assume that those directors backing this proposal aren't genuinely concerned with the well-being of drum corps.

It's at least plausible to suggest that DCI is spread across too many corps, that it doesn't have the resources to meet its obligations. Think of it this way: I'd love to support every corps out there. I'd love to give enough money that every corps could tour comfortably and be financially stable. I'd love to give enough money that every corps has the financial freedom to operate in any way they desire. But I can't do that. I don't have the resources, in this case I specifically don't have enough money.

It would be great if DCI could be all things to all corps, but they simply don't have the resources for that. Their resources are limited, and having limited resources necessitates trade-offs. So if it comes out that we can either spread money to all corps so that no one quite has enough, or consolidate money to ensure that at least a few are able to survive, which option do you pick?

Why do you think there is infighting? Because the non-G7 corps are acting out of the same self-interest that motives the G7 corps! I'm so sick and tired of the concept of 'noble mediocrity'. We are so quick to attribute selfless motives to those who don't act to improve themselves, while impugning those seek to better their position. I suggest that it's not the motives that make the difference between the G7 corps and everyone else, the difference is in the ability to act. If Boston or the Glassmen had been able to establish their brand so that it was on par with Phantom or the Blue Devils, don't you think they would also be behind this measure?

Every corps acts in its own self-interest, as they should. The difference between the G7 corps and the rest is that they have the means to implement this proposal. The only reason anyone is worried about smaller corps dying off is because they recognize that the fans will follow the G7 corps. If non-G7 corps don't like this then they should improve themselves to the point where they too are able to bring in the fans with equal fervor. If the Blue Devils and Cavaliers and Cadets can support multiple organizations, there's no reason other corps can't do so as well. To quote Tom Brace, "get better".

This sink or swim concept sounds drastic, and I admit that it is. But if you're losing money, if you're not able to survive without the presence and support provided by someone else, then you are a drain on that other organization. I'm not trying to be crass. I've said over and over in this thread that my dream is for all corps to be self-sustaining. I truly want all corps to be financially stable and prosperous. But until that happens, resources are dwindling, and there is only so much that can be accomplished. Even charities, existing solely to provide for others, need resources to survive.

one point...the G7 doesnt have the means to do this...they want to keep DCI attached so they have a fall back plan if it bombs....and the little guys will still be screwed, because they will still get less money and have no votes.

[audiodb]

Now for the reality. There are plenty of non-G7 corps who are perfectly happy being who they are, and they don't want a G7 influence whatsoever.

Yeah! You'd never see Tom Aungst and Neil Larravee going to Blue Stars....um, you'd never have Michael Klesch writing for Academy....er, Dean Westman would never work with Troopers....wait, I know, Pioneer would never, ever accept advice from Michael Cesario....

What was your point again?

At the other end, the G7 corps would LOVE to get fresh ideas from the non-G7, but the resentment has built up over the years to the point where it's irreparable.

A response to this fantasy is not even warranted.

[Bruckner8]

well, let's look at history.

Madison had Southwind and Cap Sound.

Madison cut both off, and has struggled on field ( dunno what the books look like since). Southwind struggled and is for all intents and purposes dead. Cap Sound...are they still around?

YEA and the corps affected:

Crossmen...moved from their home base by a few thousand miles. the YEA ties had disenchanted many alumni, and the move did even more.

Magic...tied briefly, died, came back, but died again tho the 2nd time cant be blamed on YEA.

Boston...LOL...left YEA and finally made finals for the first time ever.

Crown...very brief, pretty much stayed a finalist til 02, then rebuilt and now a top dog.

Sunrisers...never really recovered...on field some years, not in others.

so, is this really a good idea?

...and none of the examples worked in the way I proposed. But you mention the real problem: "disenchantment" Which is another way of saying "ego." And your point also shows that the ineptitude in the administration of those failures is VERY DIFFICULT to overcome, no matter how "feel good" and happy everyone is. Boston learned a lot from its YEA experience. They might even be best-poised for serious ascension! I think you may have helped my argument here.

Again, the consensus is focusing on the egos of the G7...I'm trying to put focus on the egos of the non-G7.

[garfield]

We have a winner!

I won't let your 1-day membership on DCP sway me into thinking you don't know the history of DCI, the organization, and what it was formed to do. But, even if you have long roots in the activity, it makes sense to remain clear of it's mandate within the "Combine" structure.

[Richard]

I can't. Even after reading this entire thread I haven't been convinced. You speak of faith, but your complaint presumes a great many things. First and foremost, you're awfully quick to assume that those directors backing this proposal aren't genuinely concerned with the well-being of drum corps.

Then why do they need double votes? Why do they want to take over the administration of the circuit? How does Crown running tickets benefit the well-being of drum corps?

It would be great if DCI could be all things to all corps, but they simply don't have the resources for that. Their resources are limited, and having limited resources necessitates trade-offs. So if it comes out that we can either spread money to all corps so that no one quite has enough, or consolidate money to ensure that at least a few are able to survive, which option do you pick?

You're operating under the tremedous assumption that currently "no one quite has enough". Every corps still in operation has enough. The current corps have persevered while others have not, because they have enough.

Why do you think there is infighting? Because the non-G7 corps are acting out of the same self-interest that motives the G7 corps! I'm so sick and tired of the concept of 'noble mediocrity'. We are so quick to attribute selfless motives to those who don't act to improve themselves, while impugning those seek to better their position. I suggest that it's not the motives that make the difference between the G7 corps and everyone else, the difference is in the ability to act. If Boston or the Glassmen had been able to establish their brand so that it was on par with Phantom or the Blue Devils, don't you think they would also be behind this measure?

Not if they wanted what was best for the activity. The DCI board of directors should make decisions that are best for the entire activity, not what is best for their individual organizations. Textbook conflict of interest.

Every corps acts in its own self-interest, as they should. The difference between the G7 corps and the rest is that they have the means to implement this proposal. The only reason anyone is worried about smaller corps dying off is because they recognize that the fans will follow the G7 corps. If non-G7 corps don't like this then they should improve themselves to the point where they too are able to bring in the fans with equal fervor.

Again, if the G7 are going to act in their self-interest, how is it best for the activity to consolidate revenue and power to them? Can you not see the blatant conflict of interest there?

If the G7 are so sustainable then they should just leave DCI altogether instead of attempting to take it over. Wouldn't that be best for everyone? The G7 can do their own thing and leave DCI in peace. DCI can move forward without them and explore other methods that support the entire activity.

If the Blue Devils and Cavaliers and Cadets can support multiple organizations, there's no reason other corps can't do so as well. To quote Tom Brace, "get better".

So why aren't the Colts in the G7? Stable organization, 2 corps...they seem to be doing just fine as a sustainable organization.

This sink or swim concept sounds drastic, and I admit that it is. But if you're losing money, if you're not able to survive without the presence and support provided by someone else, then you are a drain on that other organization. I'm not trying to be crass. I've said over and over in this thread that my dream is for all corps to be self-sustaining. I truly want all corps to be financially stable and prosperous. But until that happens, resources are dwindling, and there is only so much that can be accomplished. Even charities, existing solely to provide for others, need resources to survive.

You're operating under the assumption that all non-G7 corps rely heavily on the revenue sharing of DCI. I'd bet the majority of all corps revenue come from the organization's fundraising itself. And as I said before, the corps that are still in existence are self-sustaining. They don't borrow money from the Blue Devils to keep moving down the road during the summer. Not all of them are run perfectly, but wasn't Phantom Regiment scrambling for a million dollars two years ago? And they should be making decisions for all of DCI? Give me a break.

[MikeN]

I did already, in the original post...see page 105.

Gotcha, thanks. The only real problems I see there are that, first, an instructor swap really doesn't benefit the instructors themselves - the ones that are going to have to deal with the kids all summer. That said, I do agree that at a circuit (read: DCI) level, there very much should be some sort of mentor program from successful long-standing programs to newer or struggling ones.

But how does this equal the other corps meeting the G7 halfway? Giving up voting power, performance dates and revenue in return for having another staff come in for a number of weekends?

Mike

[DC Guy]

This proposal, taken in full, was more than just ego, and more than just a play for higher revenue sharing or appearance fees. The G7 are also seeking additional revenue by taking over DCI operations. Imagine CrownTickets ticketing all DCI events; YEA! performing event management; System Blue staging all DCI clinics....and those organizations profiting from providing those services.

Let's decompose this ...

Ticketing - We all pay more to see shows, now that DCI picks stadiums that are controlled by TicketMaster ... so now we get to pay a TicketMaster "Convenience Fee" to buy drum corps tickets. Would you rather pay TicketMaster or a group related to Drum Corps? DCI Fail.

System Blue - Is not staging "DCI Clinics", is staging "System Blue Clinics". DCI was supposed to do this via their "On Q" educational division, which floundered. DCI Fail.

Event Management - How many shows does YEA! manage each year ... LOTS. You might not like band shows (I do ... but not as much as drum corps shows!), but YEA! does a good job of managing shows. I've spoken to people who run "local shows", and they get little more support from DCI other than "an envelope to send the proceeds check in". DCI Fail.

There are reasons why Crown / BD / YEA are where they are ... they create a business model that works, they spend the effort to streamline that model as to not waste time / talent / resources / money.

(edited for formatting)

Edited May 21, 2010 by DC Guy

[Bruckner8]

Yeah! You'd never see Tom Aungst and Neil Larravee going to Blue Stars....um, you'd never have Michael Klesch writing for Academy....er, Dean Westman would never work with Troopers....wait, I know, Pioneer would never, ever accept advice from Michael Cesario....

What was your point again?

You forgot to give props to the Bluecoats for Troop's re-ascension, and AFAIK, all gratis. If you're as much an insider as you like to portray, you'd know this.

If anything, you're showing my point has merit. Or are you're saying that my point has been tried and failed?

We need more failure like that, lol.

Anyway, my suggestion about swapping entire staff parts in the course of the competitive aspect has never been tried. Would Klesch be "allowed" to write for, say, Boston while also writing for Crown? Would BD allow Wayne to write Bloo's book?

[vferrera]

* A plan to create a series of special events in addition to the usual competitive DCI schedule throughout the year, and feature Drum Corps International's "top acts" in fully produced big stadium shows. These events would include pre-show and post show activity, instant encores, interactive warm- up zones and fan participation in the judging process.

This is not a bad idea, but I think it should be based on the corps that have the most entertainment value, which is not necessarily the most competitive corps.

[MikeN]

Event Management - How many shows does YEA! manage each year ... LOTS. You might not like band shows (I do ... but not as much as drum corps shows!), but YEA! does a good job of managing shows. I've spoken to people who run "local shows", and they get little more support from DCI other than "an envelope to send the proceeds check in". DCI Fail.

I'm all for elimination of duplication, but how does YEA receiving the event management revenue of the directly-managed shows, regionals and championships, instead of DCI, benefit the member corps?

Why should Crown keep the money that is made from ticket fees, instead of DCI (and subsequently distributed to the member corps)?

Why should non G-7 corps have to sign with the Blue Devils' System Blue in order to put on an educational clinic under the DCI banner? I'm guessing, again, the money from these clinics will not go back to DCI and distributed to member corps.

Why should the G-7, one of whom has reportedly received tremendous subsidies from DCI to stay afloat over the years, receive total control of the financial and business direction of the entire activity?

Mike