State of drum corps manifesto

[ducttapedgerbil]

Not marginalizing anything. We all have opinions and perceptions and they're all equally valid and important. That's the opposite of marginalization...in fact, it's just a description of all of our tendencies to INFLATE our own opinions.

nope, try again... ;-) Not all opinions and perceptions are equally valid and important. That kind of thinking comes from the thinking that a high school graduation needs to have 18 valedictorians or that the last place team in little league deserves a trophy just like the winning team (don't laugh, this is common). An informed opinion is valid while an uninformed opinion is not....they are NOT equal.

If DCI had not completely dropped objective judging this whole discussion would be soooo much easier to resolve.....

[atlvalet]

for every Phantom 08 or Madison 95

Yes, variety is good.

But we should be asking ourselves, why aren't there more Phantom '08's and Madison '95's? Is there some secret formula being hidden away somewhere by the drum corps gods? Were those just perfect storms of drum corps perfection?

My overarching point was that (it seems) DCI has pursued artistic whatever-it-is over audience enthusiam/entertainment/engagement. SCV '91 was different than Madison '95, yet both shows captured their audience for different reasons. Both shows were effective. And, in my opinion, both shows were awesome. Neither show "won," but they won the hearts of the people sitting in the stands. As a performer, I would much rather have marched a show like those than won with something no one cared about.

The problem is there is no single act to point one's finger at when this audience apathy begun...it's all a slippery slope. However, I will say for me, narration was the thing that killed a lot of my enthusiasm. Not just the talking, but how bad the delivery was and how poorly it was written.

But hey, that's just me. Corps and program directors can continue to put a product on the field that results in polite golf claps. I guess when you're running a non-profit activity, you never really have to worry about paying customers (the audience). Besides, DCI is slowly moving towards empty stadiums anyway. I guess that must be someone's dream.

[Lance]

nope, try again... ;-) Not all opinions and perceptions are equally valid and important. That kind of thinking comes from the thinking that a high school graduation needs to have 18 valedictorians or that the last place team in little league deserves a trophy just like the winning team (don't laugh, this is common). An informed opinion is valid while an uninformed opinion is not....they are NOT equal.

If DCI had not completely dropped objective judging this whole discussion would be soooo much easier to resolve.....

Yes, all opinions are equally valid and important by definition. That's basic logic. Your examples of whether or not to have 18 valedictorians or trophies for all little league teams are actually perfect for that. Opinions on either side of those cannot be "correct" or "incorrect", "right" or "wrong." You can have your opinion about it though, and yours will be equally as important or valid as those who disagree with you. In short, there's a difference between fact and opinion. One can be proven right or wrong, and the other cannot.

You can objectively and empirically refute somebody saying that there are more corps today than there were 20 years ago. You cannot do the same with somebody who says that drum corps today is "better" or "worse" than it was 20 years ago, or that judging was "more accurate" or "less accurate" 20 years ago than it is today.

Also, DCI has never had objective judging whether we're talking "ticks" or judging off of rubrics. What is or is not a tick is subjective. And no rubric eliminates subjectivity, no matter how sophisticated its creator purports it to be. DCI member corps choose the rules that all corps are judged by, and from time to time get together and change the rubrics in attempts to more accurately reward what they collectively think is most important.

[atlvalet]

Yep, just tickle their feathered chins, and the audience will obligingly lay a golden egg. They're just geese, every one alike.

Just ignore every image you have in your own well-trained and talented head, and try to design something that exists only in their collective head (whatever it is they've got up there).

Just ignore every sound you've heard yourself, every bit of knowledge, all the love of music you've accumulated, insult its memory even, and try to make music that's worth a #### -- strictly from the noises inside the cackling brainstem of that big imaginary golden goose.

"Entertainment".

Sure sounds simple, don't it?

Try it sometime.

Not sure what you're getting at with the "try it sometime" bit, but I do have my own personal, secret drum corps plan to be unveiled at some as-of-yet undetermined point in the future.

However, as any artist/creative person/musician knows, it's all about finding your own voice. Not to crack open the audience's head to find out what they want. They golden egg is in finding your own brilliance.

[Lance]

Yes, variety is good.

But we should be asking ourselves, why aren't there more Phantom '08's and Madison '95's? Is there some secret formula being hidden away somewhere by the drum corps gods? Were those just perfect storms of drum corps perfection?

If you can figure it out and be able to explain it with authority, there are producers in every medium who would love to hear from you. They opftentimes spend millions of dollars on marketing and research and end up with flops, whether we're talking music, movies, art, whatever. Other times, somebody just goes with their gut and ends up changing the genre with little or no research or effort at appealing to "the masses." The magic forumla is an ephemeral mystery, IMO.

If you want to see how hard it is in dci to find universally (or near-universally) appealing shows, look at any thread asking for opinions about the "greatest whatever in dci of all time." It's a rare show that everybody includes on their list, no matter what era we're talking about or what fans we poll.

[atlvalet]

Yes, all opinions are equally valid and important by definition.

By whose definition? This sounds disturbingly like the whole "Everything is art" argument. An American flag in a jar of urine is equally as brilliant as a Monet.

[Lance]

By whose definition? This sounds disturbingly like the whole "Everything is art" argument. An American flag in a jar of urine is equally as brilliant as a Monet.

Yes. You don't get to say that somebody who disagrees with you about that type of art has a less valid opinion than you because they disagree with you. That's circular and absurd. American flag descration is controversial meaning that you have equally fervent opinions on both sides as to their artistic value. Taste is inherently subjective. The only fact you can say about an American flag in urine being art is that you like it or don't. Saying it's "good" or "bad" is purely a matter of opinion, and yours is no more or less valid than somebody's who disagrees with you.

Same thing with opinions of drum corps shows.

[atlvalet]

If you can figure it out and be able to explain it with authority, there are producers in every medium who would love to hear from you. They opftentimes spend millions of dollars on marketing and research and end up with flops, whether we're talking music, movies, art, whatever. Other times, somebody just goes with their gut and ends up changing the genre with little or no research or effort at appealing to "the masses." The magic forumla is an ephemeral mystery, IMO.

If you want to see how hard it is in dci to find universally (or near-universally) appealing shows, look at any thread asking for opinions about the "greatest whatever in dci of all time." It's a rare show that everybody includes on their list, no matter what era we're talking about or what fans we poll.

Well, I get paid to come up with stuff everyday. I helped create the logo in my avatar among many other things. It's essentially commercial art (or advertising).

Yes, some ideas are good and some are not so good. I have come up with more bad ideas then good ones. But there is someone there to say "No, that sucks" and "Yes, that is freakin' brilliant." They're called creative directors. I don't go and try to flesh out crappy ideas because, early on in the process, I was told it was poo-poo. Maybe DCI needs people to tell program directors to go back to the drawing board more often. Maybe that's the problem. Lack of filtration.

I run into this all the time at work. A client will come up with something and think it's good. Just the act of creating doesn't make it good. Just because someone thinks something up, doesn't mean it's good. In advertising we call it "First thought." Creatives are told, "Great, you had a thought. Good for you. Now go back to the drawing board and come up with one that doesn't suck." Finger painting is not Monet. It's the first step to be potentially becoming a Monet.

Perhaps this is the problem. Whoever conceives the shows has no one there to tell them it sucks or not. Whether they need to push a little farther, explore this a little more. Maybe they need to be told that their ideas are crap more often to push them to even better ones.

Well, that's my first thought anyways....

[Lance]

I run into this all the time at work. A client will come up with something and think it's good. Just the act of creating doesn't make it good. Just because someone thinks something up, doesn't mean it's good. In advertising we call it "First thought." Creatives are told, "Great, you had a thought. Good for you. Now go back to the drawing board and come up with one that doesn't suck." Finger painting is not Monet. It's the first step to be potentially becoming a Monet.

Sure. There's a reason that people pay to see one and not the other and that certain artistic trends are popular and others go down the shithole. I'm not arguing with you on that point.

I'd also argue that unedited "first thoughts" are where the really good stuff comes from as often as the deliberately constructed art....as somebody familiar with various media (which you seem to be), I would think you'd agree....not sure though. lol.

[atlvalet]

Yes. You don't get to say that somebody who disagrees with you about that type of art has a less valid opinion than you because they disagree with you. That's circular and absurd. American flag descration is controversial meaning that you have equally fervent opinions on both sides as to their artistic value. Taste is inherently subjective. The only fact you can say about an American flag in urine being art is that you like it or don't. Saying it's "good" or "bad" is purely a matter of opinion, and yours is no more or less valid than somebody's who disagrees with you.

Same thing with opinions of drum corps shows.

See, I don't even care about the flag. I care that any idiot could have thought "Hey, let's put a flag in some urine. It will be awesome."

I believe in something called talent and craft. Not everyone has the skill/talent of Monet. Any moron that drinks enough water, has a jar and a flag can do the latter.

Of course, this is just my opinion. But it's a strong one :)