BD vs Cadets in visual

[ContraFart]

Difficult does not equal better if it is not executed and not achieved.

fine then a corps should just march a block up and down the field playing mary had a little lamb....if they do it perfectly then they should win all captions except GE. But the truth of the matter is that demand plays a part in the score that is given, and BD does a very good job strategically placing small portions of big demand in parts of their show, and have little or no demand for the rest while scattering to new visual ideas, and spending alot of time standing still. BD designs their show to the sheets to do just enough to win, and they do everything well, but the visual demand of the show has been nowhere near the demand of the other top tier corps for nearly a decade.

Why is demand important? because if you are going to win year in and year out, and you have a show that does not have as much demand as others.....then other corps are going to follow suit, take less risks, and the innovation in the activity becomes stagnant. What is more impressive, someone getting a 90% on their GRE? or someone getting 110% on a 3rd grade spelling test?

Now I am not saying that the musical and colorguard demand is not where the other corps are when it comes to BD.....all I am referring to is visual demand.

Edited July 24, 2010 by ContraFart

[Plan9]

You know, I enjoy going toe-to-toe with Plan9 because the thoughts are insightful, well-designed, and expressive, even if from the perspective of a BD Honk.

There's no misconception here of which corps gets my "favorite" vote.

But what Plan says here is the meat of the argument that he's consistently voiced over and over.

I think it has a lot of merit and I can understand the emotion on both sides.

But I just don't understand why it is that, because I'm glad PR won in '08 (not "beat Bd", but WON), and because I don't relate well to BDs music book, I'm a hater.

I don't recall thinking that I was glad PR beat BD, but I was thrilled that they won.

Many people don't relate to BD and love seeing a new winner. That doesn't mean we hate BD.

Now Monkey, on the other hand...

As I have said before, there are haters and you're not one. "Hating" is an almost involuntary reaction when one sees that logo. They don't see 18 yrs old kids sweating the same as the 18 yr old kids on the other side of the country. Just like last night on the Facebook live chat during the Houston DCI FN...it was ridiculous, hateful crap, and only directed at BD. They'd feed off each other like wild dogs after a piece of meat. Desperately looking for some kind of agreement to their hateful point.

On the other hand, there's healthy disagreement on what is entertaining, difficult, creative, quality and effective. That is worth the debate and reasonably argued from different points of view.

Have BD become the Jedi's of CI? Do they have easy drill, disjointed charts; are they clean freaks, dull, hiding dirt with props.....shall I go on? But...on the other hand, they just might have one of the best show ever put on the field. These are all worth discusson by well intentioned and civil participants.

[ContraFart]

As I have said before, there are haters and you're not one. "Hating" is an almost involuntary reaction when one sees that logo. They don't see 18 yrs old kids sweating the same as the 18 yr old kids on the other side of the country. Just like last night on the Facebook live chat during the Houston DCI FN...it was ridiculous, hateful crap, and only directed at BD. They'd feed off each other like wild dogs after a piece of meat. Desperately looking for some kind of agreement to their hateful point.

On the other hand, there's healthy disagreement on what is entertaining, difficult, creative, quality and effective. That is worth the debate and reasonably argued from different points of view.

Have BD become the Jedi's of CI? Do they have easy drill, disjointed charts; are they clean freaks, dull, hiding dirt with props.....shall I go on? But...on the other hand, they just might have one of the best show ever put on the field. These are all worth discusson by well intentioned and civil participants.

BD certainly has one of the best "ideas" ever to be put on the field......but I would take the 2009 show over this years any day.

Edited July 24, 2010 by ContraFart

[Newseditor44]

As I have said before, there are haters and you're not one. "Hating" is an almost involuntary reaction when one sees that logo. They don't see 18 yrs old kids sweating the same as the 18 yr old kids on the other side of the country. Just like last night on the Facebook live chat during the Houston DCI FN...it was ridiculous, hateful crap, and only directed at BD. They'd feed off each other like wild dogs after a piece of meat. Desperately looking for some kind of agreement to their hateful point.

On the other hand, there's healthy disagreement on what is entertaining, difficult, creative, quality and effective. That is worth the debate and reasonably argued from different points of view.

Have BD become the Jedi's of CI? Do they have easy drill, disjointed charts; are they clean freaks, dull, hiding dirt with props.....shall I go on? But...on the other hand, they just might have one of the best show ever put on the field. These are all worth discussion by well intentioned and civil participants.

There is no doubt the kids are very talented, probably the best group on the field night in and night out. What we are proving with these discussions is that it is quite difficult to judge something that is so subjective. What I consider to be great is not going to jive with other people, and so on and so forth. This is probably one of the main reasons that I do not stick around to see who wins anymore, nor do I put much stock in scores. They are subjective. There are shows I enjoy, which ultimately are not going to be the same as everyone else, nor do I expect them to be.

That said, BD and Cadets are not my favorite shows this year, not will they even get close to being. I don't hate the Dev's, but I question where they are taking the activity, or where the activity is taking them, and wonder how much longer I will be able to relate to it as a whole. It's not about disliking the organization, that's not the case at all. I don't hate them. I'm just coming to realization that the activity that has been a part of my life since I was a kid no longer has a place for me, and no longer appeals to me the way it once did.

To sum up, I just don't think there is a logical way to accurately judge today's activity given the set of rules we have now. It's open to way too much conjecture and subjectivity. These aren't scores that are handed out each night, they are merely opinions, and unfortunately, we will never be able to find suitable adjudication method until we can all come to agreement what the standards and objectives are that we, as an activity are trying to attain. Based on conversations here, remarks from corps directors and designers, we are no where near that point.

Until such time, the judging, results and placements will mean absolutely nothing to me. In any given year, I really couldn't tell you where a corps placed, but if they had a show that was memorable, I can probably tell you what they played.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Newseditor44

[afd]

Ever since Todd Ryan took over as marching/visual instruction BD has been at the top or near the top in visual. The last three years....unbeatable. It's not fluke. Just reality.

[ContraFart]

Ever since Todd Ryan took over as marching/visual instruction BD has been at the top or near the top in visual. The last three years....unbeatable. It's not fluke. Just reality.

The essence of the the debate is not whether BD are the best technical marchers....I think they are, the debate is centering around the question of is their drill too easy, therefore allowing them to be cleaner and have better technique.

[megadrive]

I'm surprised I don't see more people worked up about SCV's visual this year. A lot of of indistinct blobs which are unjudgable and marching while not playing, then stopping to play a passage. And it's one of my favorite shows of the year.

[Newseditor44]

The essence of the the debate is not whether BD are the best technical marchers....I think they are, the debate is centering around the question of is their drill too easy, therefore allowing them to be cleaner and have better technique.

What Colby said... and to an extent, I think the technique questions is subjective as well, is it not?

[Newseditor44]

I'm surprised I don't see more people worked up about SCV's visual this year. A lot of of indistinct blobs which are unjudgable and marching while not playing, then stopping to play a passage. And it's one of my favorite shows of the year.

SCV has an interesting show, but I totally agree that their drill is a mess. Just my opinion of course.

[Plan9]

I will amend that statement to tie into what I said earlier..what MANY fans want to see. better?

as for wrong....what part? just waht fans want, or hat BD is doing vs what Cadets are doing. No offense, I'll take y knowledge of the activity and what goes into judging over yours.

and I know you'll try and turn me into a BD hater with this comment, but I'll remind you for the billionth time i want to like BD. I want to jump up and down and throw babies. I did that for BD for years, even when it was fashionable to hate them in the 70's, and 80's and 90's( i cheered louder for them in 96 than Phantom INO)

at the risk of being reported...you're a BD dad and hink, and that's ok. I'm using logic, knowledge of judging and the acitivity to base my reasoning...you're using passion because you feel the world hates BD

Well garfield, I always risk being devalued or made irrelivant for being a MM dad. I knew that would happen when I offered it up, because of the judgmental nature of DCP. If they find a preceived entry point, they exploit it..assuming that bolsters their position in the argument with others. It's a weak debaters strategy and anyone worth their weight in argument would know at that point that they (they one's using the Honk rationale) are showing their own vulnerablity. Simple tactics. By the way, your bringing it up is not part of this.

However, I'm old enough and I've been in enough bad places in the military to be able to discern right and wrong and not be blind to reality. That is to say...if BD had a so so show, that was not worthy of a championship, I would be honest enough to say it. As a matter of fact, many in the BD family are continually amazed how they have cranked out these creative productions (in the last 3 years). It's mind boggling.

Finally, you really need to get off this BD hater kick. Why would I accuse you of being a hater...if I did, I would be like the people I was just describing. I know you're not...a bit consumed at times, even abnormally so but not a hater. You ought to just drop it. Oh yeah, MANY is fine!