BD vs Cadets in visual

[Todd Tanji]

I enjoy BOTH Cadets' and BDs' visual shows immensely. Cavies too for that matter.

[oldtimedrummer]

In the case of BD, I think it's easy to confuse great execution for an easy book. They're making it look easy.

[IMcomguy]

In the case of BD, I think it's easy to confuse great execution for an easy book. They're making it look easy.

My main issue is that if any other corps (say for example, Glassmen or Blue Knights, or <insert name here>) attempted the same WGI'ish scatter/free-form/run/skip/hop-to-the-next-set/break and run type transitions that the Blue Devils have been using since 2008, they would be CRUCIFIED in every visual caption. Even if it was performed "flawlessly", or as flawless as some consider the Blue Devils to be executing it.

If you don't believe that to be true, you're kidding yourself.

I just hate double standards in judging. Just like how I can't wrap my mind around why Crossmen are getting even slightly rewarded for having the easiest visual book on Earth this season, yet they are 5 pointing Teal Sound now, and their scores continue to go up and up and up with nothing but a bunch of p&b. Talk about a terrible design that is getting way more points than it deserves (kudos for a well written music book, however).

And I guess there is a reason why I don't go to WGI World Finals anymore, because I can see it all in DCI during the summer now. And that just sucks to me. The two activities should share ideas and help each other progress their focuses within their own activities, but they should not be morphing into one of the same and allowing a single thematic visual element control the entire opposite activity.

/soapbox

Edited July 24, 2010 by IMcomguy

[decompressed]

My main issue is that if any other corps (say for example, Glassmen or Blue Knights, or <insert name here>) attempted the same WGI'ish scatter/free-form/run/skip/hop-to-the-next-set/break and run type transitions that the Blue Devils have been using since 2008, they would be CRUCIFIED in every visual caption. Even if it was performed "flawlessly", or as flawless as some consider the Blue Devils to be executing it.

If you don't believe that to be true, you're kidding yourself.

I just hate double standards in judging. Just like how I can't wrap my mind around why Crossmen are getting even slightly rewarded for having the easiest visual book on Earth this season, yet they are 5 pointing Teal Sound now, and their scores continue to go up and up and up with nothing but a bunch of p&b. Talk about a terrible design that is getting way more points than it deserves (kudos for a well written music book, however).

And I guess there is a reason why I don't go to WGI World Finals anymore, because I can see it all in DCI during the summer now. And that just sucks to me. The two activities should share ideas and help each other progress their focuses on their own activities, but they should not be morphing into one of the same and allowing a single thematic visual element control the entire opposite activity.

/soapbox

good points here. I prefer WGI to DCI these days specifically because groups are ABLE TO maintain their own identities and not look alike from one to the next...seems to me DCI is turning into the opposite where the judging system kinda forces you to be the same. I appreciate Teal for their commitment to an identity unique to anyone else and agree with you on comments related to them...and not just because I helped them out this year!

[Newseditor44]

Last year "all they did" was sit in chairs.

This year "all they do" is run/scatter/scramble to their spots.

Yeah, that's ALL they do.

So you can justify (once again) why BD doesn't deserve the scores they're getting.

Can YOU march their show? I'd like to see anyone give it a try and get back to us.

The question isn't can I march their show, it's can you march wither of the two shows. and if so, which one is more difficult to execute. My choice hands down is that the Cadets shows is more difficult.

[decompressed]

The question isn't can I march their show, it's can you march wither of the two shows. and if so, which one is more difficult to execute. My choice hands down is that the Cadets shows is more difficult.

Difficult does not equal better if it is not executed and not achieved.

[Newseditor44]

In the case of BD, I think it's easy to confuse great execution for an easy book. They're making it look easy.

I have to disagree with you here. When you put their visual book (strictly talking about marching, not color guard), it's in my opinion that their book is the weakest in the top 5. Hardly marching anything over 8 to 5, much slower tempos, and the their form integrity is not nearly as complete as some of the other corps. Yet they are beating each the others by a full point.

[Newseditor44]

I knew that would happen

I like this show better than BD and in my world it would beat BD but we live in DCI's world

I think this is the best Cadets show since 2003

I'd rather a good show than a placement or number and this is a good show

I hated this show when I first saw it. But I watched it again last night, and while its not my favorite show, I do like it and I think the kids are executing the hell out of it.

[IMcomguy]

Difficult does not equal better if it is not executed and not achieved.

Again, interpretation is what it all boils down to.....

Hot Cross Buns played by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra is still Hot Cross Buns.

I would much rather listen to Piano Concerto No. 3 by Rachmaninoff played at a semi-high level by any other musical group capable of at least somewhat performing it.

[jwillis35]

Some really excellent points. A few things to keep in mind about the scoring sheets:

1. No where in the sheets under music, visual, or GE does it say anything about having the MOST demand. Demand is certainly a factor when a judge considers content (the what), and you will need the appropriate amount to reach box 5 in each caption, but there is nothing that says you need to have the MOST demand.

2. Finding just the right amount of demand to effectively reach box 5, as well as striking a balance with artistry and effective design, is one of the key elements a staff and design team faces when sketching out a show. The Blue Devils, more so than any corps I know, have a knack of striking the right balance between demand and design without going overboard. After all, you have to clean the show too.

3. If a corps (Corps X) develops a show that is amazingly hard both visually and musically, extra points will not be awarded just for that demand. Even if they clean the show to perfection, the show still has to make sense artistically, and the general effect of all that demand must still reach box 5. And even then, if another corps (Corps Y) reaches box 5 in demand (even though their demand is far less), and if they reach box 5 in performance, and it just so happens their GE makes a bit more sense, then they will beat Corps X.

Having used those examples it is important that we understand risk vs. reward in this activity.

Do the Cadets or Cavaliers perform demanding visual programs? DUH, of course they do! It's awesome to watch too.

The Cadets have typically taken many risks. Sometimes they do so with the artistic design (narration, singing, electronics, show theme, content), but MOST of the time their risks are music and marching. Year in and out they produce one truly demanding program for their performers to march and play. It's fun to watch, but there are risks. For a corps that does this to have 9 titles and a ton of 2nd and 3rd place finishes is phenomenal.

But when characterizing the Cadets shows, as I have above, we can't turn around and use Freud's dictum that every hi has a low or that every "most demanding" is compared to the "least demanding," at least not when analyzing the Blue Devils. BD has plenty of demand, and it's BOX 5 demand. Once they hit that they don't need to go any further. They can put the extra time into playing their instruments better, drumming better, and marching their tootsies off, which they always do.

Not to be mean to the Cadets or Cavaliers, but what good is all that demand if in the long run you can't march it, play it, clean it?

Having said that, every corps has their style. I believe Cadets, despite what Hoppy may sometimes say in his posts or tweets, are perfectly happy being the Cadets--fast, energetic, frenetic, maybe even a tad bit reckless (in a good way). That is what makes them so CLASSIC come finals. It's why we like them. But we all know that sometimes the risk gets the better of them.

Take a look at what Phantom Regiment is marching in their 2nd and 4th sections of the show. Talk about demand. They are hauling arse!! But I believe it has also got the best of them to this point, YET...if you were like me you were standing and smiling when you listened to that music. BEST ENDING THIS YEAR IN DCI, at least in my opinion. When that brass line opens up, WHOA, I was a grown man crying like a baby. So from a competitive aspect they will not be where I know Rockford would like to be, but musically and emotionally they ARE Phantom.

I don't care for the choppy nature of the Blue Devils music. That's me, but that has nothing to do with their show if, in fact, the design of their music is doing exactly what they want it to. I also have no qualm over their score. Clearly they outperform everyone. It's just not a question. And there are moments in their show that I really like, and I do think the mirrors are fantastic. Being a fan of the 70s and 80s BD I guess I just want that over this. But Kudos to BD for being so excellent as a performing ensemble.

If nothing else, we must all remember that Excellence, in and of itself, is a form of entertainment. So often when I can't connect with BD's music, I try to just enjoy their fabulous performance levels, which for as long as I can remember have been the quintessential standard in our activity. This is not something to be griping about. This is something to be cherished and commended. So maybe they struggle a bit in terms of finding a way to entertain the fans like the Scouts or Cadets or Cavaliers or Bluecoats (who are outstanding this year). So maybe the Devils' design team just hasn't found the right amount of magic dust to put on their shows for those big-time standing ovations. Not every corps can be a Madison Scouts and simply walk on the field to babies being thrown at them.

I wish they would play a more lyrical brass book, but the ONE thing I always know I can count on when BD takes the field is that I will see and hear a corps that performs as well as anyone, and usually better. I do cherish that. It's nice to see perfection once in a while. It's nice to have risk takers (Cadets, Cavaliers), it's nice to have fabulous entertainment (Bluecoats, Madison, Cavies mid section), it's nice to hear the truly symphonic sounds of Phantom Regiment.

This is drum corps!