BD vs Cadets in visual

[afd]

The essence of the the debate is not whether BD are the best technical marchers....I think they are, the debate is centering around the question of is their drill too easy, therefore allowing them to be cleaner and have better technique.

Why is there even a debate. In figure skating if you have the hardest show on paper and don't execute it..you will not be judged based on it being hard. I feel BD's visual is just as demanding as any i've seen this year. Demand and execution...that is how they win year after year.

[BRASSO]

Visual is split up into 3 judges.... let's look at each separately:

Performance - BD simply marches better than Cadets. When they do march their style is more uniform and better defined from person to person. Their individual body visuals are executed at a very high level. Also, I'm not sure that you can prove that each individual's visual demand is tougher in Cadet's show than BD's. While Cadets do have an enormous amount of quick moving drill while playing.... BD does as well. Just watch any individual performer during .

I'll concur with those that say that BD performers march with better execution on the whole better than The Cadets.

I will not accept the premise that BD 's visual demand is as tough, or tougher, than The Cadets. It is all opinion on this of course.

I think that if we gave the BD marchers The Cadets drill, and The Cadets marchers the BD drill ( in other words, switched the drill to the other Corps), I believe that The Cadets marchers would execute the BD designed drill better than the BD marchers would execute The Cadets marchers drill....... I just think that The Cadets drill is much more phsyically demanding than the BD drill. I have no idea why The Cadets do not get more demand credit for such high velocity movements in their scoring. If I was them, I'd dumb down their high velocity, high demand drill a bit, and go with something a little slower and a little easier to execute. This marching model obviously works for the Blue Devils.

Edited July 24, 2010 by BRASSO

[Newseditor44]

I'll concur with those that say that BD performers march with better execution on the whole better than The Cadets.

I will not accept the premise that BD 's visual demand is as tough, or tougher, than The Cadets. It is all opinion on this of course.

I think that if we gave the BD marchers The Cadets drill, and The Cadets marchers the BD drill ( in other words, switched the drill to the other Corps), I believe that The Cadets marchers would execute the BD designed drill better than the BD marchers would execute The Cadets marchers drill....... I just think that The Cadets drill is more phsyically demanding than the BD drill. Way more, in my opinion, as a matter of fact. I have no idea why The Cadets do not get the demand credit for such demand in their scoring. If I was them, I'd dumb down their high velocity, high demand drill, and go with something a little easier to execute. This model obviously works for the Blue Devils.

Just curious... if a show is less demanding or less challenging to march, wouldn't it be easier to execute technique? In other words, isn't it easier to march with good technique at 120 bpm at 8 to 5 than it is at 240 bpm 4 to 5?

Edited July 24, 2010 by Newseditor44

[BRASSO]

Just curious... if a show is less demanding or less challenging to march, wouldn't it be easier to execute technique? In other words, isn't it easier to march with good technique at 120 bpm at 8 to 5 than it is at 240 bpm 4 to 5?

In a word... yes.

Keep in mind that judges ARE to factor in " demand " into their scoring.

The question.... for some of us, anyway... is whether " demand " credit is being given at suffcient levels to some of these Corps compared to the Blue Devils " demand " in their visual show.

Edited July 24, 2010 by BRASSO

[2000Cadet]

Simply not true...tricks dont equal demand. Especially if it doesnt highlight the music and isnt clean.

G

What "tricks" are you talking about?

[saxfreq1128]

I'll concur with those that say that BD performers march with better execution on the whole better than The Cadets.

I will not accept the premise that BD 's visual demand is as tough, or tougher, than The Cadets. It is all opinion on this of course.

I think that if we gave the BD marchers The Cadets drill, and The Cadets marchers the BD drill ( in other words, switched the drill to the other Corps), I believe that The Cadets marchers would execute the BD designed drill better than the BD marchers would execute The Cadets marchers drill....... I just think that The Cadets drill is more phsyically demanding than the BD drill. Way more, in my opinion, as a matter of fact. I have no idea why The Cadets do not get the demand credit for such demand in their scoring. If I was them, I'd dumb down their high velocity, high demand drill, and go with something a little easier to execute. This model obviously works for the Blue Devils.

You know, though... As tough as the Cadets drill is, in terms of drill that is memorable, effective and impactful, I prefer what BD and the Cavs are offering this year. I could tell you how fast the Cadets drill was, but I couldn't describe to you anything in particular that happened, beyond the first number. I could say 'whiplash' drill happened at key points in the show, but that's fairly vague.

Moments in the BD and Cavs programs, on the other hand, stick out to me, not least because of how well they match the musical programs from these corps. They are, simply, more effective, in the most basic sense of "effect."

I think, rather than trying to make their visual program easier, the Cadets might want to look into making their program more distinctive. Visually dirty/difficult shows have won before (Four Corners, anyone?), but those programs also tended to be supremely effective (again, Four Corners, anyone?).

Edited July 24, 2010 by saxfreq1128

[Newseditor44]

In a word... yes.

So then it could be argued that if the Cadets show is more demanding (challenging), it would be more difficult for them to execute technique. Should the Cadets water their show to bump up the technique scores? And if they did that, would they still be worthy of catching and beating BD? Or should they continue to get punished because their show is more difficult to execute? I thought the goal was to push the performances to the highest level, not push them just enough to win?

I guess I'm confused...

[Newseditor44]

I think, rather than trying to make their visual program easier, the Cadets might want to look into making their program more distinctive. Visually dirty/difficult shows have won before (Four Corners, anyone?), but those programs also tended to be supremely effective (again, Four Corners, anyone?).

Now we're getting somewhere... nicely put.

[ContraFart]

Why is there even a debate. In figure skating if you have the hardest show on paper and don't execute it..you will not be judged based on it being hard. I feel BD's visual is just as demanding as any i've seen this year. Demand and execution...that is how they win year after year.

but figure skating scores are divided into technical achievement and artistic merit....let take another subjective scoring sport like diving....every dive has a difficulty score based on how hard the dive is to perform, divers who take risks with harder dives are often rewarded more so than divers who flawlessly execute a dive with a very low difficulty.

Once again I ask the question what is more impressive, getting a 90% on the GRE or a 110% on a 3rd grade spelling test.

[Newseditor44]

but figure skating scores are divided into technical achievement and artistic merit....let take another subjective scoring sport like diving....every dive has a difficulty score based on how hard the dive is to perform, divers who take risks with harder dives are often rewarded more so than divers who flawlessly execute a dive with a very low difficulty.

Once again I ask the question what is more impressive, getting a 90% on the GRE or a 110% on a 3rd grade spelling test.

Also in figure skating, you have specific goals that the performers are required to achieve and execute, and if they do not, they are docked a specific number of points. The judging guidelines for figure skating are far less subjective than you might think. In drum corps there are no specific goals that are required of the corps, which opens the door to allowing our judges to be completely subjective. This, in my opinion, is not a good thing and what causes all of the problems.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Newseditor44