Does entertaining to the audience mean not credited by judges?

[TAFL]

Rah! Rah! Everything's perfect!

[Bob984]

BD's show this year is one of my all time favorites, especially live. The other top corps did not come west this year so I cannot judge them (consider yourselves lucky that you get to see BD and SCV live in the Midwest and East). However I am very excited to see all the corps live in Indi. Sure I will have my favorites but there will be something I can enjoy in all these shows at this level. I also look forward to going to the open class finals. I find that the styles between the top corps this year is pretty diverse which is fantastic!

The crowd has some effect. Phantom in 08 is an example as they sucked me into the moment even though I did not think they were quite the best technical corps out there (very close obviously with a .025 surge at the very end). They sold me on the story and your could feel the electricity in the air from the home town crowd. Was the crowd the 151st member? Are we all cool with that? I am and I congratulate Phantom on a well deserved victory. Now where can we place a championship for the next 10 years where everyone gets their crowd from time to time?

Frankly, I don't think the location had jack to do with Phantom winning in 2008. I'm from NJ, and the two corps that rocked that night were Crown and especially Phantom. I was also at Allentown that year, and Phantom tore it up there, too.

I would agree that BD was right with Phantom and perhaps had a slight edge in the visual caption, but Phantom was clearly better musically, and music effect-wise, it wasn't close.

I can't relate to the BD musical book at all this year, and frankly, the last BD show that I felt was well-arranged musically was the Godfather show. I respect their performance level, but I don't connect with the show musically. I'm not alone in that opinion, and it will be interesting to see how their show "sells" compared to others in Indy. Many, including myself, believe that a show should be perceived to connect with/please the majority of the audience to receive top music effect scores, but that currently is not the case......some are calling for change in that regard......not to restrict what anyone plays, but they need to connect with the audience.

GB

[Newseditor44]

Yup, Crown's problem these days is that they are boring..........uhuh

While the show is quite good, I would argue that Crown's show is not quite as audience friendly as it has been the past several years. I'm not rushing out to buy the music like I have in the past, nor do I feel that emotional connection to it. It's obvious they've taken a shot at winning this year, and a big shot at that. Doesn't look like it's going to work, and in the process have probably distanced themselves from a few of their fans.

I can't relate to the BD musical book at all this year, and frankly, the last BD show that I felt was well-arranged musically was the Godfather show. I respect their performance level, but I don't connect with the show musically. I'm not alone in that opinion, and it will be interesting to see how their show "sells" compared to others in Indy. Many, including myself, believe that a show should be perceived to connect with/please the majority of the audience to receive top music effect scores, but that currently is not the case......some are calling for change in that regard......not to restrict what anyone plays, but they need to connect with the audience.

I completely agree here. Visual to me is secondary (and I'm still not convinced that BD's visual program is anything beyond average, color guard discounted), and that being said, their musical program has yet to grab me. Technically they are fabulous but there is nothing melodic to grab hold of. Angry, dissident music does nothing for me, and that is the way their shows have been produced the past three or so years. There have been bits and pieces that were OK, but nothing that stands out to me. Not saying they were wrong or bad shows, but personally I just don't like them.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Newseditor44

[Lance]

Type "2nd Symphony" into google, and you'll find that Mahler 2 is the one with the most links on the front page....just a very popular symphony, even for music laymen. It's a life changing experience to really hear it.

I can't imagine a corps doing a better job with it than Crown has done this year.

[Newseditor44]

Type "2nd Symphony" into google, and you'll find that Mahler 2 is the one with the most links on the front page....just a very popular symphony, even for music laymen. It's a life changing experience to really hear it.

I can't imagine a corps doing a better job with it than Crown has done this year.

No one is saying they are doing a bad job with it.

I think a distinction needs to be made between performance and design. I'm not sure that any of us would question how well any of these groups are performing. I haven't really seen any bad "performances" this year. All of the corps are at a very high level, and it could be argued that this might be a great year for performances. Where I see the biggest discrepancy is how the designers are choosing to present their programs, and how many feel they are playing to win at the audiences expense.

In my opinion, the audience is no longer given consideration when a show is designed. It's all about the judges, and that is DCI's fault. We've placed such a premium on winning and a huge emphasis on the competitive aspect of this activity that it's tearing it apart at the seams. The fans feel ripped off when they walk away from a show because the corps do not attempt to connect, and in turn people second guess their choice the next season to pay money to attend a show. The shows I've been to this season have been down in attendance (the sagging economy doesn't help), and the circle of friends I have all pretty much echo my sentiment that the corps are not entertaining. So what happens when we're done chasing everyone away with WGI shows on football fields? This is going to sound old school but music and marching need to have more emphasis on the sheets and their needs to be a way for entertainment value to have more of an impact.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Newseditor44

[Lance]

I see what you're saying, but think it's always a stretch when anybody tries to speak for "the audience."

I'd be all for getting rid of scoring, though. It's stupid.

[Scerpella]

What I think is funny is that people get all bent out of shape when someone has the gall to notice that certain corps simply connect better emotionally with crowds in certain years than others. The fact it takes all kinds to make the world go round doesnt alter that fact. Simply because someone gets jazzed up about the more subtle nuances of music performance doesnt make all corps equally entertaining.

Phantom Regiment 2008 is THE perfect example of a show that was so over the top emotional and in connecting with the audience that it trumped excellent performances by others that in different years might have been good enough to win. People got so wrapped in the story PR was telling that everything else was secondary.

SO I would say in 2008 at least entertainment and emotional value was in fact credited by the judges.

[JMS0527]

This isn't meant to answer all questions and settle any issue, but it's worth posting

Also....from 2004...

The most global area of evaluation is known as effect. Music and visual presentations should create an effect unto themselves, triggering aesthetic responses to the intellectual and emotional design and performance. In essence, this is how we determine what is entertaining about a particular program. Effect captions are the most subjective to judge and yet there are established principles of design and performance practices which can determine what is effective.

Effect judges are looking at the actual design of the show, the peaks and valleys of excitement throughout, and how the performers make the show successful. Questions a judge might consider in judging effect are: Do all of the elements of visual and musical design reach an effective climax together? Are there a variety of effects in the show that display a wide array of human emotions? Does the pacing of the show vary, remain steady, or have lapses?

It is important to realize that it is not just the designers who control the effect but also the performers who bring the effects to life. The performers may be truly amazing musicians and superb marchers, yet they may have limited show material to work with. Eventually the effect wears thin. To be a good effect judge, one must have a depth of understanding of how shows are put together and how performers can not only interpret the design but also actually elevate its success.

[Lance]

Audience reactions like Phantom 08, Cadets 00, and Madison 95, and Phantom 93 are exceptional.

Even Madison tried re-capturing that lightning in a bottle in 96, and it didn't come close...yet it was still a fine show that deserved its score and entertained plenty of people.

12 of any of those shows in a row on finals night would be exhausting, repetitive, and boring by the end of the night.

It gets really old seeing people say what amounts to this: "If I don't happen to like it, then it was designed for judges not for the audience." Variety is nice. People do exist besides you who have different tastes and different ways of processing what they love besides screaming for ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff sound and theatrics.

[Newseditor44]

What I think is funny is that people get all bent out of shape when someone has the gall to notice that certain corps simply connect better emotionally with crowds in certain years than others. The fact it takes all kinds to make the world go round doesnt alter that fact. Simply because someone gets jazzed up about the more subtle nuances of music performance doesnt make all corps equally entertaining.

Phantom Regiment 2008 is THE perfect example of a show that was so over the top emotional and in connecting with the audience that it trumped excellent performances by others that in different years might have been good enough to win. People got so wrapped in the story PR was telling that everything else was secondary.

SO I would say in 2008 at least entertainment and emotional value was in fact credited by the judges.

Totally agree with you here. Regiment was no where near as clean as BD, but had they lost that night, and I think Bloomington would have burned to the ground! (Being sarcastic here guys)

But to my point, the thing that won the show for Phantom wasn't GE visual, but Music GE. They connected with the crowd musically and the story unfolded from there. Visually they were third and fourth in most categories, but they excelled in music, and I think it can be argued that they did this by producing a very accessible show. They connected with the audience and connected with the judges. Now I know a lot of people might disagree, but judges are fans to. And they get just as hyped when they hear and see a good show. The question is, how do we learn from that and how do we harness that?

If DCI can find a way to create a scoring system that awards entertainment, can you imagine the shows we would see?