Does entertaining to the audience mean not credited by judges?

[corps-mudgeon]

Who do the judges consider to be the audience? Themselves, or the those people in the stands?

[Plan9]

Who do the judges consider to be the audience? Themselves, or the those people in the stands?

Both.

[BRASSO]

Who do the judges consider to be the audience? Themselves, or the those people in the stands?

Themselves. This notion that somehow a judge can gauge the " effect " on the audience as well as he or she can judge the " effect " on themselves is preposterous, frankly. In practice, the GE judge makes a determinaion of the GE effect on on themselves.... and themselves only... no matter what it states on the caption guideline. Additionally, GE judges are not put into an isolation booths all summer. They hear what fans think of shows around the country. If the GE judge REALLY applied the " audience effect " in his or her scoring, then its quite obvious that the Blue Devils would not be scoring this highly in all their shows in the GE captions. The Blue Devils are NOT the audience favorite his year in terms of their show positively " effecting " the audience to this large degree. But the BD show HAS obviously had a much more positive " General Effect " on the GE judges. So in reality, the GE caption is determined by how the show is integrated visually and musically, and how the show effects the JUDGE.... NOT the audience at the show.

Edited July 31, 2010 by BRASSO

[SopMaster]

You can't factor in the audience. Or every corps will do the "Crown" and blast long major chords all throughout their show to get the audience to react. Or pull an SCV 09, play nothing impactful for 9 minutes, and then perform a company front which they know everyone would go crazy for.

Now personally, I love that stuff. Company fronts all day, big 8 measure whole note crescendos, etc. but that is no longer rewarded on the sheets.

Anyway, I need to get to bed. I have a 6 hour drive to ATL. Will give a review when I get back. Night Drum Corps Fans!

[Bob984]

Themselves. This notion that somehow a judge can gauge the " effect " on the audience as well as he or she can judge the " effect " on themselves is preposterous, frankly. In practice, the GE judge makes a determinaion of the GE effect on on themselves.... and themselves only... no matter what it states on the caption guideline. Additionally, GE judges are not put into an isolation booths all summer. They hear what fans think of shows around the country. If the GE judge REALLY applied the " audience effect " in his or her scoring, then its quite obvious that the Blue Devils would not be scoring this highly in all their shows in the GE captions. The Blue Devils are NOT the audience favorite his year in terms of their show positively " effecting " the audience to this large degree. But the BD show HAS obviously had a much more positive " General Effect " on the GE judges. So in reality, the GE caption is determined by how the show is integrated visually and musically, and how the show effects the JUDGE.... NOT the audience at the show.

Your word "isolation" also triggered an important problem. It is not unusual for the visual effect and music effect judges to be within earshot of each other in the box. In reality, their evaluations should have little to do with each other. Yes, both will discuss coordination of the musical and visual products, but that is only a small part of each caption. Certainly a great "park and blow" might generate some fine musical effect, and minimal visual effect. Conversely, maybe a great visual move might generate alot of visual effect, and very little/no music effect. It should be totally possible for someone to win visual effect and be 7th in music effect, or vice versa, but you never see it happen. You rarely see huge differences in the two, and it is rare for a variation of more than 2 places between the 2 judges. I also totally agree with you that there is zero consideration of the audience, and it doesn't have to connect at all with the audience for the judge to issue a stellar score......thus, the root of the problem in the caption.

GB

[corpsband]

Themselves. This notion that somehow a judge can gauge the " effect " on the audience as well as he or she can judge the " effect " on themselves is preposterous, frankly. In practice, the GE judge makes a determinaion of the GE effect on on themselves.... and themselves only... no matter what it states on the caption guideline. Additionally, GE judges are not put into an isolation booths all summer. They hear what fans think of shows around the country. If the GE judge REALLY applied the " audience effect " in his or her scoring, then its quite obvious that the Blue Devils would not be scoring this highly in all their shows in the GE captions. The Blue Devils are NOT the audience favorite his year in terms of their show positively " effecting " the audience to this large degree. But the BD show HAS obviously had a much more positive " General Effect " on the GE judges. So in reality, the GE caption is determined by how the show is integrated visually and musically, and how the show effects the JUDGE.... NOT the audience at the show.

(you're mixing up effect and affect all over the place in the preceding but i think i follow your train of thought)

Audience engagement is not the same as "audience favorite." Engagement implies that audience is paying attention to what you're doing and being manipulated (emotionally, intellectually or aesthetically) by the design and performer. Exactly what the audience is thinking or feeling is immaterial (although the designer should have a clear intent in that respect); this torpedoes all those who will say "you can't know how i feel or think". It's immaterial what the audience thinks or feels -- it's only important that it does so. This reaction is something we're all familiar with; we've all been in an audience for a play or concert or stand-up comedian or film and experience the performers/performance connecting or failing to connect. We've laughed or cried or hmmmm'ed or shook our head in disbelief or been horrified or thought "I knew that was going to happen" or been surprised or been shocked or quietly smiled at the irony.

It's ok if the judge considers their own reactions. They're a member of the audience too. In fact one of the challenges a GE judge faces is giving over herself to the performance and *not* being analytical.

I don't agree that judges can't gauge how well a program connects with an audience. The very fact that GE exists at all proves that (a) the connection is important (b) it is observable by a member of said audience. Clearly responsible parties all agree it *can* be adjudicated *and* that's it's worthwhile to attempt to do so.

Ever been at a drum corps show and suddenly you could hear a pin drop? Audience engaged.

Ever been to a drum corps show and hear 1000's of people gasp in surprise? Audience engaged.

Ever see an audience suddenly start talking about the arrival of the next corps at the gate. Audience disengaged.

The list of examples is endless.

Sorry this whole nonsense about "you can only judge how it affects you" is just a bunch of existentialist tripe. Human beings are very good at reading crowds of other human beings particularly when the observer is *part* of the audience. Sure it's still subjective -- all cast through the lens of the judge's eye -- but we live with that problem in every aspect of judging.

If you're going to create a rubric and carefully define concepts -- and then completely ignore them! -- there's a wee bit of a problem.

Is that happening?

You be the judge!

[BRASSO]

(you're mixing up effect and affect all over the place in the preceding but i think i follow your train of thought)

Audience engagement is not the same as "audience favorite." Engagement implies that audience is paying attention to what you're doing and being manipulated (emotionally, intellectually or aesthetically) by the design and performer. Exactly what the audience is thinking or feeling is immaterial (although the designer should have a clear intent in that respect); this torpedoes all those who will say "you can't know how i feel or think". It's immaterial what the audience thinks or feels -- it's only important that it does so. This reaction is something we're all familiar with; we've all been in an audience for a play or concert or stand-up comedian or film and experience the performers/performance connecting or failing to connect. We've laughed or cried or hmmmm'ed or shook our head in disbelief or been horrified or thought "I knew that was going to happen" or been surprised or been shocked or quietly smiled at the irony.

It's ok if the judge considers their own reactions. They're a member of the audience too. In fact one of the challenges a GE judge faces is giving over herself to the performance and *not* being analytical.

I don't agree that judges can't gauge how well a program connects with an audience. The very fact that GE exists at all proves that (a) the connection is important (b) it is observable by a member of said audience. Clearly responsible parties all agree it *can* be adjudicated *and* that's it's worthwhile to attempt to do so.

Ever been at a drum corps show and suddenly you could hear a pin drop? Audience engaged.

Ever been to a drum corps show and hear 1000's of people gasp in surprise? Audience engaged.

Ever see an audience suddenly start talking about the arrival of the next corps at the gate. Audience disengaged.

The list of examples is endless.

Sorry this whole nonsense about "you can only judge how it affects you" is just a bunch of existentialist tripe. Human beings are very good at reading crowds of other human beings particularly when the observer is *part* of the audience. Sure it's still subjective -- all cast through the lens of the judge's eye -- but we live with that problem in every aspect of judging.

If you're going to create a rubric and carefully define concepts -- and then completely ignore them! -- there's a wee bit of a problem.

Is that happening?

You be the judge!

When the Blue Devils enter the field for competition, I would guess that perhaps every person in that audience that has a pulse knows that the Corps that is about to perform for them is one of the very best, if not the very best in the entire Drum Corps world. The mere fact that they are usually the last Corps to perform in competiton in the show tells everyone in the stadium this, irrespective of their level of familiarity with both Drum Corps and the Blue Devils.

As such, this notion that the fans in attendance will somehow" not be engaged " when they perform is simplly not an issue. The fans will be " engaged " right from the beginning. They will " pay attention ". Do the judges give high GE marks because the fans in attendance were thoroughly " engaged " with the Blue Devils in performance ? Of course not. It's silly to think so. The GE judges are giving high marks to the Blue Devils and it has nothing at all to do with the audience degree of " engagement " with the performance. It has everything to do with how their show effects THEM, the GE judge, and only THEM.

Edited July 31, 2010 by BRASSO