Inside the Arc - "The Dut Must Die"

[BozzlyB]

I just want to make sure I have this right. You refer to a Nobel prize to goof on the Grammys. Close? And then we get, in essence, I don't care where you played, who you taught, what you've done, if you don't agree with me (because what I say is an obvious fact, no matter who disagrees) you are misinformed?

Is that close?

Just want to make sure I understand what I'm snickering about.

I'm simply saying that Frank's isn't the only opinion that counts on the subject. How many drumlines did the man march in? It's an honest question. If that is his back ground I'll STF up. If he's never marched in a line, then in my opinion, the thoughts of a drummer with one year experience marching corps is more valid based on the context alone.

[rayfallon]

If he's never marched in a line, then in my opinion, the thoughts of a drummer with one year experience marching corps is more valid based on the context alone.

Dude - you throw around the word ignorance like it's nothing. even when it's applied to Hall of Famers. If that sentence isn't total arrogance, I'll eat a drum pad - the one in the next room for instance.

[Big Bad Bari]

Ignorance sure is fun to observe. Another horn player talkin out their @ss.

Ummmm ya... That's why I started with the post from one of your perc folks so you knew there is someone out there with skills besides the brass folks here...

QUOTE (MarimbasaurusRex @ Oct 13 2010, 09:18 PM)

Raising some interesting points about the interpretation of time. I once had a student who came in late on an attack. Asked why it was late and he said, "I was feeling it later than that." I reminded him that feeling your way around is something you do when you're blind.

Players can learn to agree on silent time without audible or visual cues if they try. But, why make the effort when you can just listen to the dut? One of my favorite practice drills is to have players stand at a distance of 10-20 feet between with everyone facing away from everyone else. Start playing and see what happens, no conductor, no duts. When players can do that together, they'll be dangerous.

Movement definitely interferes, so if they need a few duts, why not just write them in and have one guy play it? I think drummers are just into the bravado of dutting.

And yes, if students are going to have to rehearse with a click, then I think students should learn how to play humanly with it. It's not measuring microseconds. It's learning how to feel the music in relation to consistent time. Making it feel like it's forging ahead (rushing) when it's not, or making it feel like it's laying back when it's actually right on the money. That's just an element of good musicianship. Or they can rush it like Coltrane. Will that sound good? Maybe if it's Coltrane.

Aside from odd tempo changes and insane movement, the time of the next note is determined by those that came before it. When everyone fully gets that concept, the rest takes care of itself. It's measuring more than interpreting. When our "interpretation" of that measurement agrees, we are together. People are way better at measuring time than they give themselves credit for. But, it needs to be cultivated.

Ignorance takes on many many forms my friend... And although you like to point it out... You do not see where the true ignorance lives!

[Big Bad Bari]

I'll go back to my comparison to professional musicians. Give me one example of any professional ensemble that doesn't communicate in some way shape or form in order to come in together. It could be eye contact, it could be the physical act of breathing together. Some times its a conductor. Some times there is an actual count off or a solo introduction. But ALL music is communicating time between its performers somehow. If you don't think that is happening, then you aren't paying enough attention. If you really think you can stand people several feet apart, face them away from each other and teach them someone to play music together without any type of reference at all, then you have somehow discovered students with some form of ESP. In the case of marching music, it is no longer possible, with the current demands of modern drill to simply play with the conductor. Performers are too spread out, and their timing responsibilities change too quickly. The fact is, like it or not, some form of audible communication among section members is often necessary to achieve the level of precision that is expected.

No, I really don't think that there is NO communication going on... And in fact you touch upon some pretty helpful tidbits here in your post... When Dut Dut Dut was illegal we used our eyes, ears or whatever we needed to in order to see and be a part of the pulse, up to and including making someone who most of us could see, and who could see the pulse from their vantage point responsible for pulse... This person had a good solid visual queue and those of us who could see them took the pulse from them... If you couldn't see them you watched someone who could! Guess what... There were NO Duts!. I do agree that responsibilities are more difficult nowadays but there is still ALWAYS someone who can see and that is who those who cannot see should be watching!

[Mello Dude]

Wow, I brought this up years ago about the dutting and the usual group literally attacked it to pieces. I am glad that SOMEONE else finally agrees (and wrote an article) that it's not necessary and it's simply another EASY BUTTON being used to justify something that is unmusical to say the least. I have a HARD time believing that horn players and actually guard are that much superior at keeping time that they don't need it also to do their thing in tempo.

[CrownStarr]

Dude - you throw around the word ignorance like it's nothing. even when it's applied to Hall of Famers. If that sentence isn't total arrogance, I'll eat a drum pad - the one in the next room for instance.

You're missing his point. He's not saying that Frank is ignorant about everything, or really anything disparaging about him. He's saying that someone without experience marching and teaching a drumline might not have the same experience or background in these kind of issues compared to actual percussion instructors. More generally, it's not a great idea to accept anyone's word as gospel just because they're famous or talented. Would you be saying the same thing if Frank disagreed with you? "Well, Frank Dorritie says it's this way, case closed. Go home everyone."? Of course not, you'd want to talk about it. That's what the people in this thread are doing, and it's why they don't appreciate being shut down with an appeal to authority.

No, I really don't think that there is NO communication going on... And in fact you touch upon some pretty helpful tidbits here in your post... When Dut Dut Dut was illegal we used our eyes, ears or whatever we needed to in order to see and be a part of the pulse, up to and including making someone who most of us could see, and who could see the pulse from their vantage point responsible for pulse... This person had a good solid visual queue and those of us who could see them took the pulse from them... If you couldn't see them you watched someone who could! Guess what... There were NO Duts!. I do agree that responsibilities are more difficult nowadays but there is still ALWAYS someone who can see and that is who those who cannot see should be watching!

There's always someone who can see what? The drum major? actucker's most recent post gives an excellent explanation of just why the demand these days is so insane, and why lines have turned to duts to solidify the drumline's sense of time.

Wow, I brought this up years ago about the dutting and the usual group literally attacked it to pieces. I am glad that SOMEONE else finally agrees (and wrote an article) that it's not necessary and it's simply another EASY BUTTON being used to justify something that is unmusical to say the least. I have a HARD time believing that horn players and actually guard are that much superior at keeping time that they don't need it also to do their thing in tempo.

To be fair, I think brass instruments and drums are different enough instruments that minute errors in timing are more noticeable in the drumline than in the hornline.

[Big Bad Bari]

You're missing his point. He's not saying that Frank is ignorant about everything, or really anything disparaging about him. He's saying that someone without experience marching and teaching a drumline might not have the same experience or background in these kind of issues compared to actual percussion instructors. More generally, it's not a great idea to accept anyone's word as gospel just because they're famous or talented. Would you be saying the same thing if Frank disagreed with you? "Well, Frank Dorritie says it's this way, case closed. Go home everyone."? Of course not, you'd want to talk about it. That's what the people in this thread are doing, and it's why they don't appreciate being shut down with an appeal to authority.

Nah... Not shut down due to authority... Due to lack of vision... Are we to expect that you or the other poster do not think Frank has run an ensemble rehearsal? I have attended a few of them and PULSE was the order of the day! Those ensemble rehearsals tend to be run by brass folk you know... So with Frank pretty obviously having a good handle on what you need to do to get a DRUM CORPS ENSEMBLE to play and pulse together I would say that the post calling frank into question would be arrogance at it's height!

There's always someone who can see what? The drum major? actucker's most recent post gives an excellent explanation of just why the demand these days is so insane, and why lines have turned to duts to solidify the drumline's sense of time.

The DM... Moving Feet... another group of marchers across the field if that is all you have... If you are brass the snare lines feet is a good place to look if you can see 'em... There are a ton of visual queues out there... You just have to look for them... Not be a lazy A@# and try to hear the moving Dut Dut Dut... which is probably moving away from you while it is happening! Audible queues are suspect at best...

To be fair, I think brass instruments and drums are different enough instruments that minute errors in timing are more noticeable in the drumline than in the hornline.

I agree with this but this drumline which practially lives and breathes together should also be able to count silence together... In fact that is why drum lines spend SO much time together... So they all live and breathe the same pulses all day and night all the time...

[Mello Dude]

To be fair, I think brass instruments and drums are different enough instruments that minute errors in timing are more noticeable in the drumline than in the hornline.

We are talking about less than 10 minutes of music practiced in the 100's of hours. One wonders how the Marine silent drill team ever did it without dutting. You are also talking about a group of players (drummers) that live, eat and practice timing. I still have a hard time believing that dutting is mandatory to be clean. To be fair, it's allowed, and it's used. I would HOWEVER, give more credit to a line that plays cleanly without the "crutch".

[actucker]

No, I really don't think that there is NO communication going on... And in fact you touch upon some pretty helpful tidbits here in your post... When Dut Dut Dut was illegal we used our eyes, ears or whatever we needed to in order to see and be a part of the pulse, up to and including making someone who most of us could see, and who could see the pulse from their vantage point responsible for pulse... This person had a good solid visual queue and those of us who could see them took the pulse from them... If you couldn't see them you watched someone who could! Guess what... There were NO Duts!. I do agree that responsibilities are more difficult nowadays but there is still ALWAYS someone who can see and that is who those who cannot see should be watching!

I've already addressed why watching the drum major doesn't work. The farther you are from them, the more delay there is between the hands, and the sound from the instrument. Its basic physics. Sound moves more slowly than light. If you were to take modern drill, and try to have every single member play with the drum majors hands, even if they could see the DM, you'd get major timing tears all over the field. This wouldn't be much of an issue if performers stayed in the same general area of the field for the entire show, but that is no longer the case. Again, the environment of today's activity demands more complicated nuance in terms of timing, and asking 15+ members of a section who's instruments basic physics make any dirt painfully obvious to each individually know how far ahead every attack in the show should be as they move across the field at break neck speed, without any communication with each other at all in regards to said attacks is simply not possible. If it were, someone would be doing it by now. We've already established that watching isn't a reliable means of establishing time, so again, the communication has to become audible, especially in the case of the drum line when their drill is often so independent from the rest of the group. In a horn line, there are often files, and forms that put members in a position to see each other. This is not often the case with the battery.

As for the comment about guard, the guard have their own timing systems. I do not pretend to know what their philosophy, but as they are no dealing with sound delay, I would imagine they are different from ours. I do know that most of the guards I have had the pleasure to watch rehearse, including drum corps guards, were counting out loud on the field.

And don't think for a second that brass lines don't have similar forms of communication. For one thing, their breathing is audible if they are doing it correctly.

The fact is, if the "duts" were never heard by the audience, there would be no conversation. Musicians communicate however they have to for the sake of their art. There are tons of things that we do that the audience never knows about in order to create the illusion of an effortless performance. "Duts" are no different. Its no different from me looking up at my bass player and making eye contact when he pulls the time back too much. If people want to be arrogant enough to think that they are a crutch, then I again reiterate my challenge. You go march that drill, and play that music on reefed up snare drums, with absolutely no verbal communication with your section and see how successful you are.

Music at its most base is communication. It is communication to the audience, but it is also communication between the performers. Those of us who are privileged enough to understand the mechanics sometimes feel like a kid who has seen the secret behind a magic trick, which is, again, why the "duts" shouldn't be heard if at all avoidable, but that doesn't mean that people should deliberately make their own lives more difficult because a few people think something is "unnecessary".

Just as a disclaimer, I have the utmost respect for Frank. I simply don't agree with some points in his article. There is a difference between not agreeing with something that someone has to say, and disregarding any experience or expertise they might have. There is also a difference between respecting someone's success, and blindly agreeing with everything they say. Things are not always so black and white, and there are many different ways to do things.

[charlie1223]

The guy talks a big game be he even says the "Duts" are a rehearsal technique. He just has a thing against duts being heard in a performance.... and really who doesn't! I don't know what's got people worked up...

In general if drum-line is warming up in the lot and they dut alot that's kinda bad ###. If there is even a part of the performance that is intensified with audible duts then do it! but when duts just ruin a mood or feel... get them out for sure. we can all agree with that... i think.