Frank Dorrities article

[Big Bad Bari]

So who are you with all your many many years of experience as I do not see it in your signature? I mean you do have 35 posts! Although you sound knowledgable in some areas... It is still a crutch... Corps do not cover the fiield more now than they did in other eras... Individual responsibilities have certainly increased but the physics of the football field have not changed since it was invented... Therefore count in your heads and have tempo sessions like we did back before Drum Corps was good... Maybe getting rid of the crutch will make you stronger... Maybe not but I see many many more posts (in the other side of the forum) stating how impossible it is... I will say this to those posts...

Only a few win... Everybody else thinks the same...

Then you don't know me. I haven't won a grammy, but I'm degreed in music, and have medaled/won every major marching activity in existence since the late 70's, on both brass and percussion instruments, indoor and outdoor, band and corps, as a player and instructor/arranger. Can you say the same for yourself? Your sig says no.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Big Bad Bari

[ahquad]

I've been here since '02. I just never posted because I get too opinionated and along those years was affiliated with groups I didn't want to embarrass with my comments. A few here who know who I am can vouch that I've been around since RAMD was in it's heyday. I just never logged in and forgot my original screen name so I resigned up recently.

I don't put it all in my sig because I think that is stupid and just gives people e-ballz. If you want to list all your accomplishments in a signature to brag, that's fine. I choose not to. While I did post that I've achieved a lot, it was only in response to someone implying I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't feel the need to state that in a signature.

Finally, read ALL of my posts in this thread. I don't agree with dutting all the time. I only say that there are times it is needed, and in those times, I do not think it should be heard from the stands.

So who are you with all your many many years of experience as I do not see it in your signature? I mean you do have 35 posts! Although you sound knowledgable in some areas... It is still a crutch... Corps do not cover the fiield more now than they did in other eras... Individual responsibilities have certainly increased but the physics of the football field have not changed since it was invented... Therefore count in your heads and have tempo sessions like we did back before Drum Corps was good... Maybe getting rid of the crutch will make you stronger... Maybe not but I see many many more posts (in the other side of the forum) stating how impossible it is... I will say this to those posts...

Only a few win... Everybody else thinks the same...

Then you don't know me. I haven't won a grammy, but I'm degreed in music, and have medaled/won every major marching activity in existence since the late 70's, on both brass and percussion instruments, indoor and outdoor, band and corps, as a player and instructor/arranger. Can you say the same for yourself? Your sig says no.

[NYSkyliner]

Then you don't know me. I haven't won a grammy, but I'm degreed in music, and have medaled/won every major marching activity in existence since the late 70's, on both brass and percussion instruments, indoor and outdoor, band and corps, as a player and instructor/arranger. Can you say the same for yourself? Your sig says no.

I will certainly take the Grammy winner over you ANY day. His credentials speak VOLUMES over your pamphlet.

Edited October 15, 2010 by NYSkyliner

[Jeff Ream]

I've been here since '02. I just never posted because I get too opinionated and along those years was affiliated with groups I didn't want to embarrass with my comments. A few here who know who I am can vouch that I've been around since RAMD was in it's heyday. I just never logged in and forgot my original screen name so I resigned up recently.

I don't put it all in my sig because I think that is stupid and just gives people e-ballz. If you want to list all your accomplishments in a signature to brag, that's fine. I choose not to. While I did post that I've achieved a lot, it was only in response to someone implying I have no idea what I'm talking about. I don't feel the need to state that in a signature.

Finally, read ALL of my posts in this thread. I don't agree with dutting all the time. I only say that there are times it is needed, and in those times, I do not think it should be heard from the stands.

i'll vouch for their background and knowledge

[ahquad]

I will certainly take the Grammy winner over you ANY day. His credentials speak VOLUMES over your pamphlet.

Heck, on paper, I would too. No worries. The man is one of the greats. Last I checked I didn't see any awards for marching percussion in his credentials, however. I'm pretty comfortable with my accomplishments and the positive effect I've had on others and the activity, regardless of your opinion. Carry on!

[NYSkyliner]

Heck, on paper, I would too. No worries. The man is one of the greats. Last I checked I didn't see any awards for marching percussion in his credentials, however. I'm pretty comfortable with my accomplishments and the positive effect I've had on others and the activity, regardless of your opinion. Carry on!

Once again you seem to want to separate percussionists from musicians. Percussionists are musicians. Both you and Mr. Dorrittie are musicians. I really wish that both percussionists and horn players (oboeists, pianists, etal. because if Hoppy gets his way you will all be on the same Drum Corps field competing against each other soon) see your/ourselves as musicians first and foremost. The elitist staus that both seem to want to proclaim for yourselves is what has caused this rediculous "dutting" BS to begin with. And THAT is the croix of the matter. Now YOU can carry on!!!

[Skydrummer9]

I have to agree with Frank. Being an old school guy myself, I am annoyed....no better flabbergasted at the overuse of the Dr. Beat. Yes, more onus needs to be put on the drum major, the percussionists who can easily play a tap and let's preserve the hearing of our marching members.

While we are on the subject....kevlar drum heads. While the original intention was probably a noble one, why do we have snare lines that sound like they are playing on table tops instead of snare drums? JMHO, nobody elses. Just me.

I of course wasn't old enough to be considered an "old school guy" but I was taught by some of the greats since I started in this activity in 2003. Many drum instructors tried to get it into my head that dutting was necessary... Never did it, never will do it, never going to teach my drummers to do it. See what wonderful individual on that big box looking podium thing flailing their arms about like an epileptic on meth? That is called the drum major... He or she is in charge of the tempo. You follow him or her with your eyes and keep THEIR tempo. Failure to do so will be noted on the caption sheet.

And in my opinion and experience, many drum instructors have their individual preference for the tuning of the kevlar heads. I believe a lot of them are over tuned to the point that it would be less costly to march around with a piece of drywall. I also believe a lot of corps who do that is because, again in my personal belief, the range of a Bb hornline is not as strong a projection against a line of G Bugles. If I were to run a competitive corps, I would return the mylar head back to the field an release the drummers to do what they need to do without sacrificing their volume, dynamics, and above all chop endurance (after just 6 months of playing on a kevlar head, I developed a cyst in my wrist that is inoperable due to the very high risk of losing mobility and use of my right hand.) I never had that issue with mylar heads. I compare kevlar heads with Bb horns. They do not have the same feel, sound, and projection as Mylar heads and G bugles... IMHO.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Skydrummer9

[Big Bad Bari]

Once again you seem to want to separate percussionists from musicians. Percussionists are musicians. Both you and Mr. Dorrittie are musicians. I really wish that both percussionists and horn players (oboeists, pianists, etal. because if Hoppy gets his way you will all be on the same Drum Corps field competing against each other soon) see your/ourselves as musicians first and foremost. The elitist staus that both seem to want to proclaim for yourselves is what has caused this rediculous "dutting" BS to begin with. And THAT is the croix of the matter. Now YOU can carry on!!!

Jokingly I mean this:

It has been said this way many a time over the PA system... Ok let's take it again... Musicians, Guard and Drums lets take it from... We always laugh and so do the percussive musicians!

[ahquad]

Once again you seem to want to separate percussionists from musicians. Percussionists are musicians. Both you and Mr. Dorrittie are musicians. I really wish that both percussionists and horn players (oboeists, pianists, etal. because if Hoppy gets his way you will all be on the same Drum Corps field competing against each other soon) see your/ourselves as musicians first and foremost. The elitist staus that both seem to want to proclaim for yourselves is what has caused this rediculous "dutting" BS to begin with. And THAT is the croix of the matter. Now YOU can carry on!!!

Point well received. My intent isn't to separate anyone. I believe anyone with an instrument is a musician. To varying levels of expertise, of course. Personally, I think a conductor of any type is a crutch as well. Dutting is just another form for "musicians"-that-beat-things (let's not run with that statement) to find a sense of common tempo. I've personally seen instances in the field medium where there really was no other way to clean an attack, especially when blinded to a visual cue or when the field spread makes the acoustics not work even if the visual indicator is there, or when a mark time isn't happening to get pulse from the feet. This is after trying everything and seeing some shows fail miserably before we succumbed to the evils of the dut. There are varying degrees of musicianship out there on the field, remember, and coupled with the demands placed on said musicians, the dut is just communicating an internal pulse so that a group can relay their musical message better. I agree with the "but we never needed it back then" concept, however I'd ask that anyone with that attitude keep an open mind and try to visualize yourself in the situations that today's designs place on the performer. It is a whole different ballgame, with many more responsibilities placed on the group as a whole than "back in the day". Todays' performers make many very complicated and difficult things look easy to us. Of course, I've never known anything other than the "dut". We used it since the late 70's when I started, and I know that pales in comparison to when many of you all started. I think we used it more effectively back then, though, since the intent was to not let the audience know it was being used. On another note I also know of another grammy winner within the DCI ranks who's drum lines used the dut, lol. But I digress.

I believe the dut to be no different than any other means taken to keep in time an ensemble of 150 people spread over 100 yards. The trick is, and it should be that, to make it truly effective, it shouldn't be heard by anyone other than the performers themselves. That is my humble non-grammy award winning opinion.

</threadjack>

PS- I edit because I can't spell and never notice until after I hit "reply".

Edited October 15, 2010 by ahquad

[NYSkyliner]

Point well received. My intent isn't to separate anyone. I believe anyone with an instrument is a musician. To varying levels of expertise, of course. Personally, I think a conductor of any type is a crutch as well. Dutting is just another form for "musicians"-that-beat-things (let's not run with that statement) to find a sense of common tempo. I've personally seen instances in the field medium where there really was no other way to clean an attack, especially when blinded to a visual cue or when the field spread makes the acoustics not work even if the visual indicator is there, or when a mark time isn't happening to get pulse from the feet. This is after trying everything and seeing some shows fail miserably before we succumbed to the evils of the dut. There are varying degrees of musicianship out there on the field, remember, and coupled with the demands placed on said musicians, the dut is just communicating an internal pulse so that a group can relay their musical message better. I agree with the "but we never needed it back then" concept, however I'd ask that anyone with that attitude keep an open mind and try to visualize yourself in the situations that today's designs place on the performer. It is a whole different ballgame, with many more responsibilities placed on the group as a whole than "back in the day". Todays' performers make many very complicated and difficult things look easy to us. Of course, I've never known anything other than the "dut". We used it since the late 70's when I started, and I know that pales in comparison to when many of you all started. I think we used it more effectively back then, though, since the intent was to not let the audience know it was being used. On another note I also know of another grammy winner within the DCI ranks who's drum lines used the dut, lol. But I digress.

I believe the dut to be no different than any other means taken to keep in time an ensemble of 150 people spread over 100 yards. The trick is, and it should be that, to make it truly effective, it shouldn't be heard by anyone other than the performers themselves. That is my humble non-grammy award winning opinion.

</threadjack>

PS- I edit because I can't spell and never notice until after I hit "reply".

Check out the Bridgemen's drum solo back in the 70s, "The Black Market Juggler", blindfolds and all. And if percussionists need to "dut" then their inner clocks all need to wound to the same tightness. THAT would improve their musicianship. Let them "dut" during rehearsals and keep it off the field, it ruins the artestry (sp,..see, I don't mind misspelling:-) of their performance. And if that other Grammy winner has his drum line using "dut" during a contest on the field that Grammy should be revoked.