2011 DCI Tour of Champions and more

[audiodb]

LOL! Are all "professional basket ball players" the best? Are all "NFL football teams" the best?! Yea, your in World Class that you makes you REally good. But being the best means your limiting the distinction to a set few of a possible many!!

But you don't see the NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL limiting a portion of their regular season to just eight of their teams.

This is what is called socialism. And I'm not crazy political person, but it's just obvious that that kind of system, where everyone is treated equally, is called socialism.

Actually, no....not even the colloquial usage of the term takes that connotation. But more importantly, I don't think the question of allowing access to shows among world-class DCI corps rises to the level of "socialism".

And the reason why OC tour is in Corn City, USA is because there aren't enough people that watch it for them to got to more expensive stadiums in "drum corps" hot-spots. It's all about the money and what people find entertaining.

You speak as if there are no HS football fields in the Eastern time zone.

(sigh)

Let's just say that the true reasons you see OC tour routed through corn country cannot be boiled down to one glib sentence.

First of all, no one is marketing the under 8 crowd as worse, they are just marketing the top 8 as the best. and you think that distinguishing the best is also a form of dismissing the "worst" I think you need to take a look around at society. We are always showcasing the best the world has to offer and that does not diminish those that aren't the best.

I think we all get that. It's part of DCI's mission. The question is how much of the "best" to showcase.

I can see your concern but there is no way in telling if this will make people discourage the other corps or spark a new interest in all of drum corps.

It could spark a new interest in the 9-23 corps. Would you object to that?

[BozzlyB]

But you don't see the NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL limiting a portion of their regular season to just eight of their teams.

You sure do, it's called the playoffs.

[audiodb]

Well, since you posted this twice, let me ask you something....

hey Jeff Ream, Your "points", arguments and solutions are null because you're assuming the "ideal" conditions and frankly, the world isn't ideal, people try to make it ideal but there are costs and benefits to everything, we try to minimize the costs and maximize the benefits but there are always winners and losers. DCI isn't going to magically create the formula that philosophers for thousands of years have been trying to create. Nothing is completely ideal, not everyone is going to be happy, people WILL be more advantageous than others. Wake up, we have to pick our poison, whatever that may be...

Would I love for all corps to be in the spot light? Yes.

Would I love for all corps to get the same amount of money? Yes.

Would I love for all corps to be on an equal playing field during a competition? Yes.

Are all these things even remotely possible in capitalist driven world and given the human condition? NO. They are all good things you preach Jeff but they aren't realistic. Sorry.

I assume there's a point to this post, but am not sure what it is. Which is not realistic?

- DCI to operate without nine TOC shows that deny access to corps 9-46

- DCI to operate without adopting the entire G7 proposal to seize voting rights, revenue, half of DCI's infrastructure, and even more exclusive show access

[glory]

yet...the guys who created the system in place for the last 15-20 years are now saying it's broken...but they made the changes. so who's to blame?

The changes you're referring to really aren't but six or so years old (Bb maybe a decade) at most, so let's not saddle those folks and their system with 20 years of decline.

I'll answer the question anyway. Who's to blame? Not Hopkins, Gibbs or Fiedler. Everyone else.

As I've been saying, the reduced numbers in drum corps aren't the result of 00s programming and rules any more than they are because of 70s-80s programming and rules. The declines reflect changes in the society around us, changes in demographics, geography and even choice and taste. Those changes aren't unique to drum corps. They have afflicted the broad 'arts' category profoundly, forcing regional symphonies and ballets to cut back and close. On the other hand, they have sponsored massive growth and improvement in high school band programs, a trend which ironically hurt drum corps by providing a substitute for certain young people who otherwise might have sought out corps.

Whether you agree with the specifics of the Hopkins-Gibbs-Fiedler agenda is beside the point. The point is they have recognized that drum corps can't be more of an anachronism than it already is. It has to evolve to meet the changing expectations of the society around it, the society that MUST support it. The alternative was and is an accelerated decline.

HH

[audiodb]

But you don't see the NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL limiting a portion of their regular season to just eight of their teams.

You sure do, it's called the playoffs.

Read my post again. I said "regular season". Playoffs are not part of the regular season. They occur afterwards, to determine a champion. DCI's "playoffs" take place during championship week.

[charlie1223]

Actually, no....not even the colloquial usage of the term takes that connotation. But more importantly, I don't think the question of allowing access to shows among world-class DCI corps rises to the level of "socialism".

This is reference to "socialism" (from World English Dictionary)

Socialism: an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels

Reread to me that part I highlighted? In the context I was referring to in my original post it was used with exactly the correct connotation.

AND... I never said that last part you mentioned. You made that up.

Edited December 22, 2010 by charlie1223

[charlie1223]

The question is how much of the "best" to showcase.

The more the better right?

It could spark a new interest in the 9-23 corps. Would you object to that?

Of course not! I mean, if people get so put off by the G8 that the other corps get more "attention" from a recruiting and monetary standpoint then that's cool. We all want drum corps to survive. I don't care which drum corps is on the top, as long as the top is excellent.

[BRASSO]

You sure do, it's called the playoffs.

In sports,... all sports.... the playoff teams are selected based upon their regular season success for THAT SEASON.

To keep the sports playoff analogy going to what DCI has done, MLB would select the 8 teams to feature in the playoffs this year based upon how the 28 teams have played over the last decade. Would such a selection benefit those 8 teams selected from Opening Day forward to when the playoffs occur later in the season ? Oh, you betcha.

And of course, why not propose it, if you can get away with it.

No sport that I'm aware of advantages some competitive teams to the exclusion of other competitive teams before the competitive season even begins as is done now by DCI for this upcoming season.

People use to scoff at the comments made by some in the past that" there is slotting in DCI Drum Corps "

Well, at least those remarks are no longer debatable. With this G-8 slotting system now in place, that debate at least has been put to rest once and for all. Maybe it's good that there's one less thing to debate now anyway. But is having a group slotting system in place within the World Class Division good for fair and open competition ?.... and good for the Drum Corps activity ? People will have to determine that for themselves. But any system that adavantages some competitive groups within a competitive class even before the competititive season begins is an inherently unfair and rigged system, imo.

Edited December 22, 2010 by BRASSO

[audiodb]

Neither the programming nor the rules of the 70s, 80s and 90s were enough to keep fans in seats and corps in business. The fact is the major migration away from drum corps happened BEFORE the major rules changes of this decade. If anything, change had to be the smart move. The 70s-90s template was bleeding the activity to death.

But what aspect of this '70s-'90s template was most responsible for that attrition? "Change" for change's sake won't help if it doesn't address the actual problem (or worse yet, doubles down on the wrong gamble).

As I've been saying, the reduced numbers in drum corps aren't the result of 00s programming and rules any more than they are because of 70s-80s programming and rules. The declines reflect changes in the society around us, changes in demographics, geography and even choice and taste. Those changes aren't unique to drum corps. They have afflicted the broad 'arts' category profoundly, forcing regional symphonies and ballets to cut back and close.

The sky is falling!

On the other hand, they have sponsored massive growth and improvement in high school band programs, a trend which ironically hurt drum corps by providing a substitute for certain young people who otherwise might have sought out corps.

Oh, wait....the sky isn't falling.

The rise of competitive HS marching band demonstrates why "changing society" cannot be made the scapegoat for the decline in drum corps participation. It also underscores where the real trouble lie$. Follow the money.

One of the reasons drum corps sprang up like weeds back in the day is because the activity was cost-effective by design. The military veterans' organizations that organized it picked equipment that was effective for field usage, but also inexpensive. But over the decades, as music educators and others have tweaked drum corps to better match their personal preferences, the cost of equipping such a corps has risen again and again....and corps have folded by the hundreds, often citing the increasing financial challenges as their cause of death.

Eventually, some of these same people discovered another way to produce something similar to drum corps. The "corps-style" HS marching band developed in earnest in the 1970s. Building on the established foundation of scholastic music program budgets, these marching band programs were the path of least resistance in dealing with the costs of equipping a marching music ensemble. As such, their numbers grew dramatically throughout the '70s, '80s and '90s.

[audiodb]

This is reference to "socialism" (from World English Dictionary)

Socialism: an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels

Reread to me that part I highlighted? In the context I was referring to in my original post it was used with exactly the correct connotation.

So you match four words out of a 57-word definition. You're 7% correct.

AND... I never said that last part you mentioned. You made that up.

I'm sorry....this thread is about TOC shows, and I thought that was the context in which your remark was made. If that's not right, please clarify.