When woodwinds are added....

[BOBSMYTH]

Excellent post. One correction, though....it applies primarily to instrumentation. You don't see every single world-class corps using props or doing a pre-show. But you do see every WC unit using Bb/F brass, pit amplification and electronic instruments.

True - not all corps participate in all aspects of the arms race. Quite a few have used props from time to time and I would not be surprised to see more in the future. The pre-show rules are relatively new and I expect to see more preshows - and more elaborate ones - in the near future. All of this continues to escalate costs.

Another financial angle: not only is it increasingly difficult to keep up for the current corps, each change also raises the bar on the cost of entry for newer corps to start-up or move-up into World Class.

[audiodb]

Another financial angle: not only is it increasingly difficult to keep up for the current corps, each change also raises the bar on the cost of entry for newer corps to start-up or move-up into World Class.

New corps? What new corps?

[Jeff Ream]

So, in your world every comment made by anyone is the official position of whatever group that person belongs to? That's not sales and marketing 101. That is Utopia. People as individuals make all sorts of statements that would not represent the corporate position on a topic all the time. Its called being human. As a judge you are saying that you have never made a comment that you'd like to 'do over'???? Every single comment you have ever made is perfectly worded and phrased?

as a judge for a circuit, we are constantly reminded at all times to watch what we say, even if we feel it's a joke, because we are considered representatives of the association we judge for.

yes I have made a statement or two I wish I could do over....because it reflected poorly on the association. And with time, age, wisdom , and experience, I've learned to pick and choose my spots very carefully.

I know other judges that have made comments...at all levels, that has caused issue for the association they judge for...because their words were considered to be the official line from the circuit itself.

[Jeff Ream]

1. It was more than one judge.

2. The judging community's stated preference IS the "official viewpoint of DCI", for all practical purposes.

exactly. who sets the criteria for the judges? DCI. Who is DCI? the corps.

[MikeD]

If DCI doesn't correct or explain the comments if asked then I'd say DCI agreed with the decision(s).

Isn't there a process in DCI for a corps to lodge a complaint about the judges, if they thought their evaluation was not fair or accurate? I don't know if they did complain, since I am not on Pio's staff. My guess, and hope, is that if they did go through those channels that they would have received some sort of response. We don't know what did or did not happen. It certainly should not have been made in public, IMO. It would have been between Pio and DCI.

As for the retail example, I've raised Hades too about the way the sales staff has done/not done it's job on high priced sales. At times management agreed and tried to correct the problem. If management tried to weasel out of taking any responsibility, then my business went somewhere else. And any good organization tells the "front line" people they DO represent the organization. Heavens knows I've taken that bullet and I'm not in sales.

Oh, of course they represent the organization as employees, but it does not mean that any comment or action made represents the organizations POV. What you did was what I mentioned above...followed the channels to lodge an official complaint. That's perfectly fair.

[BOBSMYTH]

New corps? What new corps?

Perhaps there would be many new corps if they didn't perceive the need to raise a minimum of a half million dollars (and maybe twice that or more) each and every year just to play the game.

That is a rather large ante.

[MikeD]

as a judge for a circuit, we are constantly reminded at all times to watch what we say, even if we feel it's a joke, because we are considered representatives of the association we judge for.

yes I have made a statement or two I wish I could do over....because it reflected poorly on the association. And with time, age, wisdom , and experience, I've learned to pick and choose my spots very carefully.

I know other judges that have made comments...at all levels, that has caused issue for the association they judge for...because their words were considered to be the official line from the circuit itself.

But those words are not the official line of the organization, just as yours were not. Yes, a judge represents the circuit as an employee, but it doesn't mean that each and every word they utter is the official word and opinion of the organization. Why? Because they are human, and not every person is as facile with the spoken word as every other person.

I guess, as with many things, we'll continue to disagree on this point too!

[soccerguy315]

Didn't GH propose something a few years back and either caught flack or the proposal went down in flames. Then GH said he was just testing the waters or just bringing up something outragious to keep people on their toes. IOW - he wouldn't admit how serious he was so he fobbed it off as kind of a joke.

Before anyone flames I'm being serious, just can't remember what the proposal was or if it even was voted on. Kinda impossible to search DCP on this as GH proposes a lot.

he put out a proposal to add saxophones. don't remember what year.

[Jeff Ream]

But those words are not the official line of the organization, just as yours were not. Yes, a judge represents the circuit as an employee, but it doesn't mean that each and every word they utter is the official word and opinion of the organization. Why? Because they are human, and not every person is as facile with the spoken word as every other person.

I guess, as with many things, we'll continue to disagree on this point too!

well...those judges are hired by the association, and if they say it, people consider it the word. that whole perception is reality thing you hate to acknowledge there Mike.

[MikeD]

well...those judges are hired by the association, and if they say it, people consider it the word. that whole perception is reality thing you hate to acknowledge there Mike.

Sorry, the one not acknowledging the reality here is you, Jeff. Judges make poorly worded statements at times, even good judges. There is a process to challenge the statements if the corps so chooses. Why? Because people are not perfect. Life in general is shades of gray, not as black and white as you are making it appear.

Both band circuits I have been associated with as a judge or staff member had a process to do the same. I used it one time myself as a staff member in reporting poor comments by a judge a lot of people consider to be one of the best...I consider him that way myself most of the time. It is to-date the ONLY time I ever reported a judge since I started teaching bands/corps in 1971. He made some poorly worded comments on one tape...did not agree with me that they were poor comments at the critique, so I went through channels and reported him, sending his tape to the person in charge. At no time did I think that his comments were indicative of the official attitude of the circuit.