Stu Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Freeze frame at 6:11. Look at all of the distance errors: a) The idea to freeze frame "anything" that is in motion to identify an error is completely absurd. b) Howdy, please post a video of a unit which was under "your" instruction so that we can actually see the perfection you claim to teach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHoosierMack Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I'm not quite sure why you're addressing me in the mocking, negative, insulting and demeaning manner that you've chosen, particularly since you have no idea of my experience or background. My guess is that my communication style somehow rubbed you the wrong way. Unlike yourself, I had no intention to speak in a derogatory way to anyone's level of knowledge or experience, and I apologize to anyone that received it in the manner that you did. First things first, a sincere thank you both for your service to our country and for taking the time to communicate. And you'll notice a sincere retraction of my snarkiness from here on out. Your post seemed exceptionally rude and naive to me. But, only because...... I chose to use terms that I believe most people with a basic level of knowledge about this topic have likely heard or used before (i.e. "dot-marching," "form-marching"). I get why you said it, coming on it from such a long run in the activity. And to be frank, I completely agree with your assessment if we're talking about the techniques from the 70's when they didn't have yardlines. I've also heard members of many generations use "Form Marching" in a derogatory, and uneducated way, just as the term "dot diver" has negative implications to a member of that school. The general "My way is better" nature of the thread, combined with my misinterpretation of your actual meaning most certainly set me off a bit. your brief synopsis of that "flip out" moment people have is what I just experienced, but we've all likely been beaten about by it one way or another. Which is why I almost didn't read the thread, because I knew what Howdy was up to....flame bait. For what it's worth, I only came to appreciate the complimentary (and in so many ways identical) aspects of both current schools after marching devils back in '01, and then moving to the Chicagoland area for the next 4 years, where it seemed every time I met anyone who would ask me anything of substance about the Blue Devils experience, it would nearly always end with "How do you get that clean if you don't know your dots?". I had a flashback, and I'm sorry. Luckily those moments often turned into great friendships and working relationships with some of the smartest guys I know, who were unfortunate enough to be Cavaliers....and to have to live with that forever..lol In all honesty though, it taught ME a lot about how they work, and how to put the two together in a way that even they could live with. I consider this a "good to meet ya" opportunity. My name's Michael, played mello for 2 years DCI (99 Gmen, 01 Devils), Auditioned, was accepted, and got all the way to MEPS in Indy, before being DQ'ed from Marine Corps for of all things hearing loss. You lived my dream man. I have been involved now for I guess about half of my 30 years on the planet in some form or fashion. I've only recently become a decent writer, but I love learning the activity, love gettin' dirty in a sincere intellectual disagreement, and am honest enough with myself to know when to say "I'm wrong". I probably shouldn't allow myself to be annoyed by anything so late at night....sorry man. And yes, anything can be charted in pyware, but some specific things wouldn't be because of the "best practices" ambitions most of us (myself included) have. Take for example the backwards floating / morphing ribbon form dissolve in BD '10 that happens right before the mirrors crack, around the mid-point of the production. That moment would only be possible with at "dot-only" technique were you to stop and clean each of the constantly morphing step sizes and direction changes. Yes, similar moments can and have been done with a form only approach, but the demand on the tuba section specifically would require a competent pyware user to write it in a "cleanable" fashion. I'm fairly confident we wouldn't see that moment from a dot-only corps, because changing step sizes and pathways on the move isn't what they do, especially when you use that most kryptonite like term to any Cavalier..."Curved Pathway". I don't say that in a pejorative way because there are other tools which they use more often and much better than any form marcher. But the point is, while anything is possible were you to chart and clean count by count, some things just aren't reasonable under those circumstances, and are therefore charted, learned, taught, and cleaned differently. Learning Jay Murphy drill from Jay Murphy while Jay Murphy writes it on the fly was a truly mind-bending experience. Wish I could have done it more than once. ~Michael 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpaul Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Wello, my human eyes from viweing 2010 DCI's top 12 can clearly see that many of these corps marched very sloppy, with so many marching errors for me to critique them all would sound like a tick tape from someone with turrets syndrome. Back to previous example, and I am not being unfair posting this clip is is from the San Antonio show, somewhere about 1/2 way thru the season: Check out these contra bass interval errors on 7/28 starting at about 1:48 , yikes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol4nZ84lxDA&feature=related Those interval errors are huge, and more proof in my opinion that this go to the dot - dot subset thing and ignore everything else like intervals and forms just does not work. In order for the interval to be incorrect either one, or both, performers had to be off their dots. The error could be corrected either through better interval awareness or better dot awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) a) The idea to freeze frame "anything" that is in motion to identify an error is completely absurd. ,snip. No it is not. I am giving everyone a chance to see some of the things that I am looking at [see] when I watch a show. While it is just one picture of one second of a show, this picture is worth a thousand words. Interval errors [and many other errors] can happen even in between dots/sub dots - sets or sub sets. It takes more than just teaching dots to maintain good intervals. I would never be against using dots, it is just that ignoring all of the other skills that are needed to march at the highest form of excellence [ such as learning how to hold, expand or contract intervals and distances, dress, cover, angles , step size, etc.] spatial awareness, and I could list 100 other skils at least that need to be taught , how to maintain , recover, hide errors and mistakes, etc. A corps needs to have the attitude that they are going to march the best show that they can on the day that they are on the field. I reject this corps are sloppy because it is not finals week , or because future changes are not in. Sometimes the very worst thing a corps can do is to make a change. not all changes are for the best. If a coprs makes changes based upon one judges recomendation, another judge might criticize the change that the other judge recommended. I have seen this happen firsthand. Edited January 18, 2011 by Howdy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetiredJedi Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Discussion about the pro's and con's of marching to the dot vs marching within the form. The basic framework of this discussion is flawed. Exceptional visual requires both. I quote a visual genius: "You spend 90% of the show in transition from set to set. You maintain the form. Period. But you better be, by gawd, on your spot at the end of the move." - George Zingali 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Howdy, this is going to be my mantra until you pony up or shut up: Please provide us with a link to a video of a unit under your instruction which proves your contention. If you can provide us with such a video, and it can be freeze framed with near perfect results, then we might let up on you a bit. Otherwise your contention holds no support whatsoever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roosevelt Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 No it is not. I am giving everyone a chance to see some of the things that I am looking at [see] when I watch a show. While it is just one picture of one second of a show, this picture is worth a thousand words. Interval errors [and many other errors] can happen even in between dots/sub dots - sets or sub sets. It takes more than just teaching dots to maintain good intervals. I would never be against using dots, it is just that ignoring all of the other skills that are needed to march at the highest form of excellence [ such as learning how to hold, expand or contract intervals and distances, dress, cover, angles , step size, etc.] spatial awareness, and I could list 100 other skils at least that need to be taught , how to maintain , recover, hide errors and mistakes, etc. A corps needs to have the attitude that they are going to march the best show that they can on the day that they are on the field. I reject this corps are sloppy because it is not finals week , or because future changes are not in. Sometimes the very worst thing a corps can do is to make a change. not all changes are for the best. If a coprs makes changes based upon one judges recomendation, another judge might criticize the change that the other judge recommended. I have seen this happen firsthand. No Howdy. It isn't. The corps won visual ensemble that night, not to mention a DCI championship. THAT is worth a 1000 words. All of the skills you listed are important, but those skills are also taught in the dot system... they are just gone about in a different way, but that is not the point. As many people have said on here before, ANY SYSTEM WORKS AS LONG AS YOU DESIGN & TEACH IT WELL. Conversely, any system can fail if you don't design and teach it well. If you cannot realize that Howdy, then you are clearly in over your head in the topic that you started. Furthermore, being dirty early season is a by-product of the demand that is evident in the shows these days. Honestly, as much as I hate to see dirt on DVD's, that (to a certain extent) is a product of the demands of shows these days too. If you do more, there is generally going to be more ticks... but there is room for more achievement too. You can achieve more than a corps that is cleaner than you simply by the "how much" that it is you do. Finally, if you are as smart as you say you are and have this whole drum corps thing figured out, then why don't you start your own corps and take it to the top? So far all we know of you is you are someone that got canned from Pioneer a couple of years ago and now spends a bunch of time bashing them...when you are not too busy being a self-promoter or espousing your own greatness that is. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 part of the problem with only marching "form" is that over time the forms can move, thus changing people's drill moves. Also, if you are making a diagonal and the 2nd person is off by a quarter of a step, they will be a little bit out of it dot-wise. However, if this is a 16 person diagonal, and each person further back in the line is adjusting to the new angle, the last person in the line could be multiple steps off their dot, and possibly not even be able to reach their spot (or have to make a ridiculous step size change part way through the move to get there). This. Form only drill leads to form deterioration over time, the dot system ensures the forms retain their clarity. Marching the form is really all that happens inbetween getting to your dots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 > "You spend 90% of the show in transition from set to set. You maintain the form. Period. But you better be, by gawd, on your spot at the end of the move." - George Zingali Ding, Ding, Ding; Winner, Winner, Chicken, Dinner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 No it is not. I am giving everyone a chance to see some of the things that I am looking at [see] when I watch a show. While it is just one picture of one second of a show, this picture is worth a thousand words. Interval errors [and many other errors] can happen even in between dots/sub dots - sets or sub sets. It takes more than just teaching dots to maintain good intervals. I would never be against using dots, it is just that ignoring all of the other skills that are needed to march at the highest form of excellence [ such as learning how to hold, expand or contract intervals and distances, dress, cover, angles , step size, etc.] spatial awareness, and I could list 100 other skils at least that need to be taught , how to maintain , recover, hide errors and mistakes, etc. A corps needs to have the attitude that they are going to march the best show that they can on the day that they are on the field. I reject this corps are sloppy because it is not finals week , or because future changes are not in. Sometimes the very worst thing a corps can do is to make a change. not all changes are for the best. If a coprs makes changes based upon one judges recomendation, another judge might criticize the change that the other judge recommended. I have seen this happen firsthand. so let's say you judge. how will you be able to freeze frame things to find all these errors you calim exist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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