charlie1223 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) I agree with many of the reasons given here and would add this: The massive cost for purchasing pit instruments and the equipment needed to transport it, made many directors throw up their hands and close their doors. The proliferation of the grounded, front group, musical instruments, ALONG with the afore reasons mentioned here, factor into the decline of drum corps. The unit corps who could handle this expense, made it cost prohibitive for most others and the times of these two occurrences,(pit equip and corps decline) line up perfectly. I do not agree with this. I think the reason that corps folded was for a number of different reasons, not just because of a grounded pit.... Further, this dynamic created an elitist group. I have a tough time coming to grips with the G7, BUT LETS FACE IT, there are only a small group of drum corps that will EVER win DCI. Every time this word comes up its used negatively. I heard an interesting statistic that for the past few years (don't know how far back exactly) since DCI has been keeping track of the average age of a corps, the corps that had the highest average age won. It could just be a coincidence or it could mean that corps with the most experienced members tend to do well in competition. Are the corps elitist because of it? Not at all. The corps is just a body, it doesn't mean anything. The students make up the corps, and its the talented students that make a drum corps successful year after year. I don't care (in an objective perspective) if the corps "BD" wins every year till kingdom come, as long as BD holds fair auditions, allows anyone who is good enough to join the corps, and the kids all have an equal opportunity to march at what ever corps they wish. Corps are just an empty skeleton without the kids filling them up. Edited February 15, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) The massive cost for purchasing pit instruments and the equipment needed to transport it, made many directors throw up their hands and close their doors. It takes capital to run any corporation, and every corporation needs increases in revenue to update and add to their equipment or they will go belly-up. The individual corps directors, or directors of ant non-profit corporation, should view their units as a business first and all else as secondary; any director that sees this as an art form first is doomed to cause the folding of their corps. The proliferation of the grounded, front group, musical instruments, ALONG with the afore reasons mentioned here, factor into the decline of drum corps. While there are less corps' involved today, there has been increased quality in addressing health concerns, increased quality in food and food preparation, increased quality in transportation, increased quality in instruction, increased quality in the instruments used; all of which are "good" for the youth involved. If a corps' folds due to the Corps Director and the Board of Directors not being able to financially provide these qualities, then so be it. Further, this dynamic created an elitist group. I have a tough time coming to grips with the G7... Elite status (ie best, cream of the crop, winner, champion) is a good thing when the title reflects a combination of something being "earned" (as opposed to being self-proclaimed) along with the likelihood that the title will be lost if performance wains. The problem with the G7 was the elitism was self-proclaimed along with the throw-under-the-bus attitude they had concerning all other non-G7 corps' (especially their desire to totally eliminate the OC). ...BUT LETS FACE IT, there are only a small group of drum corps that will EVER win DCI. Yes winning units consist of a small group (as it does in any activity), however it is not an "exclusive" group but one in which is earned through hard work, discipline, and sacrifice. In 1972 the Blue Stars were second while the Cadets, the Blue Devils, and Phantom Regiment did not even make finals; The Cavaliers dropped out of the top twelve in 1973 and it took them all the way until 1992 to win a title; for Regiment it took all the way to 1996 to get a win; the Blue Stars dropped out of the top 12 in 1980 it it took until 2008 for them to crawl their way back into the top twelve; Carolina Crown began in 1990 with a paltry 33rd place finish and are just now vying for a win; same holds true for the Bluecoats who in 1977 began with a 35th place finish. Some day, if things keep progressing as they are, The Academy will be in a position to win in WC. Winning is HARD to accomplish, and only those strong enough to "earn" a win ever get that chance. And that is what "winning" is all about!!! Render unto DCI what is DCI's, but LETS REBUILD LOCAL AND REGIONAL DRUM CORPS. DCI is not holding back any financially "responsible" corps' from being formed on the local, regional, or national level; there is nothing in the DCI rules that an OC corps has to do a national tour; in fact DCI has an evaluation process to make sure corps' can afford a national tour prior to allowing them to do so. Also, there are organizations like DCA, SDCA, and the new DCNA providing local services. However, if you mean that we need to rebuild local and regional drum corps' that do not know how to be ran as a business, like the hundreds and hundreds of corps that folded due to "irresponsible business practices", then absolutely NOT! Edited February 15, 2011 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skewerz Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 there's also one more point to consider in this deal breaker dino discussion... perhaps...now, this is just me spitballing here, but perhaps, Mr. Garfield has only one final straw left because...well, there just aren't any others left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruckner8 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The problem with your Masters in Logic... Master of Arts in Secondary Education (Math) and Master of Music Performance (Trombone), but you were close: I did have to take Logic, Number Theory and Modern Geometries. That's because "single-issue" does imply "no other issues". If that isn't what you mean, perhaps you should choose different words. Fair enough. Can I use the term "condition" in place of "issue?" From simplest of logic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table, IF P THEN Q, where P is the condition and Q is the implication. IF WW THEN QUIT is garfield's statement. No one has a problem with this. It's clear that there is a single, solitary condition. garfield and others have said "but there exist multiple issues." Cool. Now we have IF P (AND/OR S) THEN Q. If the statement operataion is OR: IF WW OR [AGE LIMIT CHANGED TO 25] THEN QUIT, then this is still a single condition situation because only ONE OF THE CONDITIONS has to be TRUE in order for the statement to be TRUE! It doesn't matter how many of them are TRUE; only ONE OF THEM has to be true to make the outcome TRUE. If it were changed to AND: IF WW AND [AGE LIMIT CHANGED TO 25] THEN QUIT, then we'd have a multi-issue (er, condition) situation. It would take ALL CONDITIONS to be TRUE for the outcome (Quitting) to be TRUE. Sooooo, whenever someone says "IF [single condition is true] THEN Implication, it's single issue. Furthermore, if they are using a logical operation of OR, and ANY ONE OF THE CONDITIONS is singular, it's a single issue situation because a single condition can cause the entire outcome to be TRUE. QED http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D. PS: Here's a perfect example of non-singular, using OR: IF { [WW] AND [Electronics] } OR { [AGE LIMIT 25] AND [MALE ONLY] } THEN QUIT Both conditions on either side of the OR are multiple-conditions themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) The costs of the pit might have caused some corps to fold, but many corps borrow and or share pit equipment. I think DCI eliminating regional emphesis, putting most of their emphesis on the wc top 6, costs of logistics insurance and food, ending DCM , requiring corps to tour more and to have a minimum of 30 students to compete all added to many beloved corps folding. Edited February 15, 2011 by Howdy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Master of Arts in Secondary Education (Math) and Master of Music Performance (Trombone), but you were close: I did have to take Logic, Number Theory and Modern Geometries. Fair enough. Can I use the term "condition" in place of "issue?" From simplest of logic http://en.wikipedia....iki/Truth_table, IF P THEN Q, where P is the condition and Q is the implication. IF WW THEN QUIT is garfield's statement. No one has a problem with this. It's clear that there is a single, solitary condition. garfield and others have said "but there exist multiple issues." Cool. Now we have IF P (AND/OR S) THEN Q. If the statement operataion is OR: IF WW OR [AGE LIMIT CHANGED TO 25] THEN QUIT, then this is still a single condition situation because only ONE OF THE CONDITIONS has to be TRUE in order for the statement to be TRUE! It doesn't matter how many of them are TRUE; only ONE OF THEM has to be true to make the outcome TRUE. If it were changed to AND: IF WW AND [AGE LIMIT CHANGED TO 25] THEN QUIT, then we'd have a multi-issue (er, condition) situation. It would take ALL CONDITIONS to be TRUE for the outcome (Quitting) to be TRUE. Sooooo, whenever someone says "IF [single condition is true] THEN Implication, it's single issue. Furthermore, if they are using a logical operation of OR, and ANY ONE OF THE CONDITIONS is singular, it's a single issue situation because a single condition can cause the entire outcome to be TRUE. QED http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D. PS: Here's a perfect example of non-singular, using OR: IF { [WW] AND [Electronics] } OR { [AGE LIMIT 25] AND [MALE ONLY] } THEN QUIT Both conditions on either side of the OR are multiple-conditions themselves. Hey! Your math equals my math/finance, and your trombone equals my brother's trombone performance and pedagogy degree. We MUST be related! (But I think you'll have a hard time building a formula around that contention!) Except Bruckner is several down on my list of favs. I actually enjoyed this post. It was very good at helping me recall my fuzzy days of logic class. In particular I like this, as it correctly simulates the condition we're discussing: IF WW AND [AGE LIMIT CHANGED TO 25] THEN QUIT, then we'd have a multi-issue (er, condition) situation. It would take ALL CONDITIONS to be TRUE for the outcome (Quitting) to be TRUE. Just change the variables to Bb, A&E, scholastic, and woodwinds, then QUIT. When all conditions are TRUE, then quit. Exactly. We're Multi-issue people. Not single issue. Glad you helped prove my point logically. (And thanks for the link to QED, but it will take me a few days and a few glasses of wine to digest its meaning.) Like I said at the outset, Bruckner, I still can't tell if you're the one to love or the one to hate. But you certainly are one to engage. Edited February 15, 2011 by garfield 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 there's also one more point to consider in this deal breaker dino discussion... perhaps...now, this is just me spitballing here, but perhaps, Mr. Garfield has only one final straw left because...well, there just aren't any others left. pretty much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruckner8 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 IF WW AND [AGE LIMIT CHANGED TO 25] THEN QUIT, then we'd have a multi-issue (er, condition) situation. It would take ALL CONDITIONS to be TRUE for the outcome (Quitting) to be TRUE. Just change the variables to Bb, A&E, scholastic, and woodwinds, then QUIT. When all conditions are TRUE, then quit. Exactly. We're Multi-issue people. Not single issue. Glad you helped prove my point logically. Hey, no sweat, happy to oblige! So you see WW as a "last straw" kind of thing. Interesting that the others aren't deal-breakers...only the SUM TOTAL (the logical AND). I wonder if in the past you ever thought, wrote or said "If B-flat comes, I quit." or "If A&E comes I quit." or... What if WW had happened first, before Bb, and before A&E? Would you still be following drum corps, and cursing them all the while? Also, what do you mean by scholastic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Hey, no sweat, happy to oblige! So you see WW as a "last straw" kind of thing. Interesting that the others aren't deal-breakers...only the SUM TOTAL (the logical AND). I wonder if in the past you ever thought, wrote or said "If B-flat comes, I quit." or "If A&E comes I quit." or... What if WW had happened first, before Bb, and before A&E? Would you still be following drum corps, and cursing them all the while? Also, what do you mean by scholastic? woodwinds are my final line ( I keep hearing Robin Williams when I say that..."You cross this line you die. Ok this line. Ok this line") the other stuff added since rules congress 03 just keeps making that line smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Brace Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I picture MY Jesus as lead singer for Lynard Skynard with an all angel band and I'm in the front row... Hammered Drunk! I love the little baby Jesus with his gold diaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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