charlie1223 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 they have done some research, and they have seen some results they didn't like...hence the Cesario project. but to really research...they dont want to spend that cash....because the 23 bodies that have to ok probably wouldn't like what they'd hear If research has been done, then its not enough. Avoiding doing research because you wouldn't like the results? ...thats AWFUL. A corps can only do two things: Change peoples minds, or listen to what customers (members/fans) have to say. And as fans we have to be "open minded", give credit where credit is due, and be very clear about our expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skewerz Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Where did I call anyone a name? You make all sorts of personal attacks on me in post after post, actually. YOU are the one with the smarmy condescending attitude. You don't like what I post, so like this post I am quoting you stoop to making personal attacks. really? saying "people unable to grow" isn't name calling? really? If that's not name calling, then nothing I said is name calling. You always fall back on "well, it's legal". "Well, that's allowed". You can't actually carry on a valid argument based on logic, so you fall back to your rules and legality. We can show you proof of fact, and yet your party line never changes. From line items on judge sheets, to what a judge actually told a corps, to opponents of electronics, you spin everything away from the actual fact of the matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skewerz Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 No, its not silly at all. Lacrosse is not baseball. Drum corps is marching band. but not all marching band is drum corps, nor should it be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 The day that DCI allows saxophones into competition is the day DCI starts to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) I agree with every word you just said. DCI never did any kind of market study on the introduction of electronics, plain and simple. The corps directors voted it in. They were presented a 3600 signature petition saying they didn't want electronics. This comment has nothing to do with your previous comment. Sometimes I find it hard to figure out what you are saying because sometimes you say one thing, and then turn around and say the opposite bit later... I realize that while you are not against woodwinds or electronics, you aren't necessarily for them either. It's not the brass/percussion sound that does it for you. I get that. But...you'd attend if they weren't in drum corps. The same is not true for some people where electronics are concerned. Well, Sorry If I'm confusing you. what did I say this post that was opposite of what I said before? I just imagine that the way things "should" work is that if woodwinds are welcomed in DCI it will be because people have developed a strong enough taste to them and they suddenly have a desire to see woodwinds on the field. I'm thinking that the market demand for woodwind drum corps should change in the future. Now? Now, would not be a good time to add woodwinds because the market research is not available to either support or condemn such a decision. I am not against woodwinds or electronics/ synth (not against their existence in drum corps) but I am against obviously of their poor use. And it is true that I would attend shows even if synths were no long allowed in today's drum corps. But, I would be upset if amplification was no longer allowed (for the pit), but I would still go even if electronics all together were gone from drum corps. Edited February 5, 2011 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 really? saying "people unable to grow" isn't name calling? really? If that's not name calling, then nothing I said is name calling. You always fall back on "well, it's legal". "Well, that's allowed". You can't actually carry on a valid argument based on logic, so you fall back to your rules and legality. We can show you proof of fact, and yet your party line never changes. From line items on judge sheets, to what a judge actually told a corps, to opponents of electronics, you spin everything away from the actual fact of the matter. Sorry, but just spouting your opinion is hardly 'fact'...it is just your opinion, nothing more or less. "Unable to grow" is hardly name-calling...it is commenting on people who are frozen in time in what they think drum corps should be, that's all. As for logic and valid arguments...I have yet to see ONE valid argument against permitting any instruments in DCI. Just personal preference...hence...opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 The day that DCI allows saxophones into competition is the day DCI starts to die. Congrats Howdy! You wrote a complete sentence without using the words I, Me, My, or Mine! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 but not all marching band is drum corps, nor should it be. Never said it should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rifuarian Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Well, Sorry If I'm confusing you. what did I say this post that was opposite of what I said before? I just imagine that the way things "should" work is that if woodwinds are welcomed in DCI it will be because people have developed a strong enough taste to them and they suddenly have a desire to see woodwinds on the field. I'm thinking that the market demand for woodwind drum corps should change in the future. Now? Now, would not be a good time to add woodwinds because the market research is not available to either support or condemn such a decision. I am not against woodwinds or electronics/ synth (not against their existence in drum corps) but I am against obviously of their poor use. And it is true that I would attend shows even if synths were no long allowed in today's drum corps. But, I would be upset if amplification was no longer allowed (for the pit), but I would still go even if electronics all together were gone from drum corps. Thing is that none of the changes have been driven by research, market demand, changes in audience taste, or anything like that. The main impetus behind the changes was the desire of designers and instructors to have the same tools they available elsewhere. Which is good enough reason for me. Now it's true that some of the gentlemen pushing these changes seem to be operating under the strange delusion that the band kids who are supposed to be the future of drum corps fandom want drum corps to be exactly like band, but you can count the people actually arguing on one hand, and I have my doubts that even they really believe it. This is why we'll never see full-blown woodwind sections, even if drum corps audiences warm up to the idea. Directors, designers, and instructors do not want them because of how mind-bogglingly difficult they would be to field and maintain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skewerz Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Well, Sorry If I'm confusing you. what did I say this post that was opposite of what I said before? I just imagine that the way things "should" work is that if woodwinds are welcomed in DCI it will be because people have developed a strong enough taste to them and they suddenly have a desire to see woodwinds on the field. I'm thinking that the market demand for woodwind drum corps should change in the future. Now? Now, would not be a good time to add woodwinds because the market research is not available to either support or condemn such a decision. I am not against woodwinds or electronics/ synth (not against their existence in drum corps) but I am against obviously of their poor use. And it is true that I would attend shows even if synths were no long allowed in today's drum corps. But, I would be upset if amplification was no longer allowed (for the pit), but I would still go even if electronics all together were gone from drum corps. I can appreciate the way you argue things as well. You will take into account other people's points of view when in a discussion. Some people that are fans of anything goes don't. It's a shame that you never got to see 84 Garfield live...86 BD championship encore was the loudest show I've heard live, and Crown can't touch it. (I didn't get to hear 80 Spirit live) You get to hear some of the people say how horrible sounding G bugles were, and they were never in tune. That's just hogwash. Sure, some of the smaller corps had intonation problems, but once they got to the 2 valve G bugles, I can't recall any really harsh out of tune horn lines that were in the quarterfinals and up. Bb was added because of ease of resale, and to make it easier for brass instructors to teach, period. They weren't using the kid off the street anymore, at least not in the top 12. The G lines were lush...powerful...and in tune. In 1982, I went to try out for the Canton Bluecoats. I was a drummer. I showed up the week after drum tryouts, so I picked up a bari. I couldn't read music. Well, I still can't read music. I had the first 2 songs memorized by the second week. They taught those that didn't know how...can you imagine the Bluecoats doing that now? (Mom made me quit after 3 weeks...couldn't afford it) I realize that you come from a different generation...a generation that is used to guitars and synthesizers in marching band. Yet the "newbie" has to realize that fans with 10 to 50 years of history AREN'T used to it. We know what draws fans in to drum corps...musical and marching excellence. We know that people aren't attracted to drum corps because of synthesizers or guitars. The new fan either doesn't like it (small percentage) or doesn't care.(huge percentage) The legacy fan percentages are a bit different. Some don't like it (a significant percentage, but I won't go as far as to say majority), and some that don't care (probably more than the "dislike" legacy fan). Some say they like electronics also, but the number that I've personally observed that like electronics is practically nil..with the only ones I know of that like it residing on this board, and proclaiming to the heavens that electronics will save the world. (yeah, I get a bit sarcastic and off tangent once in a while. No one from DCI sent out a poll asking the fans if they wanted electronics or not. Just the opposite happened, actually, with the 3600 name fan petition saying they didn't want electronics in drum corps. A majority of corps directors wanted it, so they voted it in, plain and simple. Designers were designing for both high school bands and drum corps, so adding electronics to the drum corps repertoire made it easier for them. Music is about passion. Drum corps fans are definitely a passionate group. We all want what we all want. The problem with that is when it comes to discussion (or argument, most of the time). Passion isn't a good basis to hold a logical debate on. The electronic debate is one such discussion. MikeD says electronics should be in drum corps because they are in marching band and because drum corps is marching band, it's a logical progression. I, and many others on here, don't think that drum corps is marching band. While a subset of marching band, it is it's own unique entity. Adding marching band instruments degrades and eventually nulls drum corps uniqueness, leaving not drum corps, but band corps. There's also the 2 words that are being bandied about by the differing sides. Anachronism...from the "want it all" crowd, to tradition, from the legacy crowd. Anachronism is used in it's full negative connotation form. Change or die...Can't live in the past...etc. This isn't negative when you consider that the largest forms of entertainment in the world are all anachronistic. Orchestra, ballet, and most of the major sports are all anachronistic. Tradition is exactly what it means. The legacy fan is insulted by people that screw with their traditions. Tradition is brass, percussion, guard. Tradition is that unique sound. Making an excellent show with just brass, percussion and guard to work with is hard. Drum corps is supposed to be hard. Adding additional elements makes it easier. Adding elements doesn't make it better. It just changes it to something else, that already exists. It's a never ending fight. Drum corps will go on one way or another, until the money is gone. People argue over things they are passionate about. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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