Almost 40 years of changes at DCI, what do you think are the best 3

[actucker]

No, it's not quite that simple. The sound board operator is making adjustments as the show is in progress.

No, it wasn't. The amplified sound is the only component of drum corps that varies so dramatically from venue to venue.

Not in my case.

You got that part right.

No, no and no.

The pit is a collection of a wide variety of instruments. Some of them do not have as wide a dynamic range, or as loud a peak sound, or the same outdoor projection characteristic as others. For whatever reasons, instead of using conventional means such as instrument selection, quantity and/or acoustic techniques to achieve balance, some people have decided that electronic amplification is not just the desired solution, but rather, the necessary one.

I just hope those people really are seeking a solution....a balance.

I understand that there is a sound board operator making adjustments during the show. I actually don't agree with that move. I think the levels should be set, and it should be left to the performers to make the music. If the instruction is solid, and the performers do their job, then the balance should work. As for how to make that happen in different venues, maybe we need to build in some kind of sound check. Its a pretty tall order to predict what a venue will give you in terms of sound, so maybe a minute or two of quick sound check would be appropriate.

Really? The amplified sound is affected, but the rest of the sound coming from the field isn't? That's amazing. Too bad it isn't even remotely backed up by the laws of physics.

You are right that the pit contains a wide variety of instruments. And yes, they have different dynamic ranges. With the exception of crotales, glockenspiel, cymbals, and chimes, not a single one of those instruments could compete dynamically with a brass line. That's not a whole lot of contribution in a full ensemble impact. Leaving out the marimbas, vibes, xylophones, timpani, and various other instruments would be similar to leaving out an entire section of the brass line. Could you imagine a full fff brass hit without the mellophones? Again, the amplification allows a much wider range of arrangement possibilities. There are times when it isn't perfect, and that is undoubtably frustrating, but again, that doesn't mean that amplification is a bad thing.

As I said before, the balance issues we are having are due to user issues, not amplification issues.

[actucker]

Not debatable? How do you know what someone else hears, or from what vantage point they heard it?

No, brass lines do not swallow up the pit. Never have.

Actually, close miking at the front of the field stopped a couple of years before the pit staging area was created. But I understand what you mean....recordings, for a number of reasons, do not necessarily provide the same balance one hears from their seat in the audience.

And I'll say it again....nearly every WC ballad in the past few years.

It isn't debatable. If there were no issues hearing the pit then amplification would never have been something that people pushed for in the first place. Again, if you really feel that we had the right balance before amplification, then you do not care about hearing the pit. That's fine with me, but don't try to pass it off as if there are balance issues. Again, up until 2004, front ensemble arrangers had to arrange a certain way in order for there to be any contribution at all. Brass arrangers have never had to do that. All amplification is seeking to do is equalize that. As for the ballads. Yeah, I hear the brass line just fine on the ones I've seen. Sometimes the synthesizers get in the way, but that's not amplification of the front ensemble, which is what we are discussing here. Not once have I strained to hear the brass line over the marimbas and vibes. Maybe I'm just not going to the same shows you are.

[audiodb]

Nah: I was just shown that not only are you stubborn, myopic, and refusing to understand logic, I was PROVEN CORRECT (technically, acoustic physics was proven correct long before I was on this earth). You named TWO groups in the history of band who have had a pit back field once or twice in their history, yet to this day they are back to "traditional" effects of the pit in the front. On my side of this (pointless) debate, I have the entire history of World Class Finalist drum corps. If you think this is such a viable option, then why has no World Class corps ever put their entire front ensemble on the back sideline in the history of the activity?

Because the rules only allow percussion in the front ensemble staging area to be amplified.

[audiodb]

Again, if you really feel that we had the right balance before amplification, then you do not care about hearing the pit.

You think if you repeat this myth often enough, that people will believe it?

Again, up until 2004, front ensemble arrangers had to arrange a certain way in order for there to be any contribution at all. Brass arrangers have never had to do that.

OK, now I know you're not a brass arranger. In fact, I'm fairly certain you've never even spoken with a brass arranger.

As for the ballads. Yeah, I hear the brass line just fine on the ones I've seen. Sometimes the synthesizers get in the way, but that's not amplification of the front ensemble, which is what we are discussing here.

What is it, then? All the synths I've seen in DCI were in the front ensemble, and they were all amplified....therefore, all part of "amplification of the front ensemble".

Not once have I strained to hear the brass line over the marimbas and vibes. Maybe I'm just not going to the same shows you are.

Maybe not. Or wait, let me try this....you must not care about hearing the brass.

[perc2100]

I understand that there is a sound board operator making adjustments during the show. I actually don't agree with that move. I think the levels should be set, and it should be left to the performers to make the music.

A couple of quick things:

1) it IS left up to performers to make the music. If you think the only music being made is via adjusting synth levels, then you clearly know little about what it takes to make music. Also, if you think that dynamic phrasing in front ensembles is being created predominantly with staffers adjusting levers on a sound board, you again are sorely mistaken, and naive about front ensemble musicianship.

2) I did, however, feel as many (in this case apparently you) did that sound board should be controlled by performs. But after quite a bit of thought, I've come to the conclusion that DCI has gotten this right. Not only do front ensemble musicians have (literally) their hands full just playing musically, together as a front ensemble, while getting time from the (seemingly) multiple tempos they sometimes hear behind them. I think unless you have spent time teaching or performing in a front ensemble, it is VERY hard to gauge just how difficult it is to do what they do. While they don't have to worry about marching/playing at the same time, or hitting dots, etc, their job of performing to a moving ensemble that is often spread all over a 100 yard field is insanely difficult for even the most experienced players. Adding the extra difficulty of having to also be in charge of making sure they were balanced volume-wise with their amplification is an unnecessary "burden." When you add the fact that they are in probably the absolute worst position to control the board (being in the pit area, they are no only able to hear the over-all ensemble sound but they are in fact BEHIND the speakers), the rule saddling them with balancing the entire amplified ensemble sound is laughably goofy. Even just a staff member controlling the board 15-25 feet in front of the pit is dumb, as the REAL balance needs to be perfect at the judge's box. That's why the current rules exist: so that the absolute best possible sound can be achieved. What's the point of allowing amplification if we're going to do it half-arsed and throw caution to the wind when it comes to sound quality (ahem...I looking at you WGI...)?

I know cynics will spout off the 'then maybe we shouldn't use electronics' argument. Of course, that is moot and pointless, as we DO have electronics, like it or not. And since we're living with them, then we might as well give the corps the best possible opportunity to have success.*

*note - the best possible opportunity for success would be for corps to hire professional sound engineers, but that apparently is not happening yet with most corps; that's a gripe for another thread, perhaps...

[perc2100]

No, the premise of amplification is that the the front ensembles had to arrange a certain way so that they are not inaudible for most of the show. Now they are no longer confined by that need. And everyone is overplaying the brass being "inaudible". I have yet to see an example of that happening. Not once has the brass line been completely covered up in the same way that the front ensemble used to be on a regular basis.

Here is my honest-to-god take on what you're insinuating (which by the way, I completely agree with in the sense of people's bias against actually hearing the pit at all times):

For decades the pit has been mostly un-noticed for the majority of the show. When the pit had an important musical line that was not a solo, they were doubling/tripling/sometimes quadrupling up on parts in order to 'cut' through the brass & percussion sections sufficient enough to be heard.

When the pit had a solo phrase, no one else played, thus drawing 100% musical focus on the pit.

For the majority of the time, the pit was "kind of" heard, where you could make out what they were playing if you really focused on it: otherwise the melodic parts were just kind of there, not "obtrusive" the the brass and drumline.

This was acceptable to all for a long time, regardless of the fact that marching bands and winter percussion ensembles (coming on strong on the scene in the mid-90's) start showing the percussion world that there was indeed a way to optimally mic the front ensemble in a way so that their line was heard at all times but still blending with the ensemble. Percussionists everywhere cheered.

It took nearly forever, but DCI finally agreed to the amplification in their world. Many people, used to only marginally hearing the front ensembles, are now "forced" to actually hear every music line the pit plays, even if the brass/drum line are playing F: this was not really true in the past, as writers had to specifically write around this detriment, usually going to impact instruments (mounted cymbals, toms, concert bass, etc), or bashing the crap out of the boards only to still not really be heard.

Many people misconstrue this new-found hearing of the pit loud and clear with "too loud," meaning "this is louder than it used to be and I don't really approve because I personally liked the balance from the olden days."

And I can get that personal preference taste, and I agree that calling it "unbalanced" is wrong, and calling it "I don't like to hear the pit that loud" is probably more apt. Kind of like whenif my dad went with me to see a punk rock concert when I was in HS or college, he undoubtedly would've complained that the guitars and drums were way too loud compared to the balance of, say, Paul Simon or something he liked at that time.

Edited March 27, 2011 by perc2100

[perc2100]

I mean wow..this conversation is over? Really? Actually, my contention is that I want to hear the brass when it's supposed to be heard with an appropriate pit section that ISN'T COVERING UP OR DESTROYING THE ARTISTIC INTENT OF THE MUSIC BECAUSE IT'S LOUD AND LOUDER.

If that cannot be achieved then YES I would like the amps taken off the pit because apparently BEFORE amplification the rest of the corps compensated for the pit by either playing softer, facing the back (or elsewhere) or not playing at all or simply field placement.

To YOUR point: if your point is to constantly hear the pit playing unmusically to the REST of the corp all the time..then this conversation is over.

I just thought that I'd bring it to your attention that Drum Corps staff members often include many brass instructors and designers: often as many, if not more, than the percussion staff (especially when you add in that a lot of visual staffers are former brass marching members).

So do you think that the majority of staff members of every single WC corps sit back and let the drummers go crazy with sound and high jack the musical/artistic intent of the musical program of the show?!?

Also, I would guess that most of the Music judges in DCI are also brass players: the GE Music as well as Music Ensemble judges. Are you saying that in addition to the majority of DCI staffers, the majority of DCI Music judges ALSO "let" the drum staffers go crazy blasting the pits, destroying all artistic intent for the sake of sheer volume?!?!

If so, then you CLEARLY know little/nothing about the activity. Judges don't sit back and let percussion guys "destroy the artistic intent of the music" for the sake of turing the amps up "louder and louder" without killing them in music (insert naive people who don't have any connection to modern drum corps other than buying tickets and posting on DCP chiming in with conspiracy theories about how pit balance isn't on the sheets, judges to judge to the sheets properly, etc.).

But really, let's be honest here:

You don't like hearing the pit all the time. You'd rather hear the brass all of the time (which you already do), the drum line all of the time (which you already do), and the pit only when they are being featured. That's fine: opinions are what they are and you're certainly entitled to them.

But don't misconstrue your opinion with some activity-wide conspiracy to destroy artistic intent, just because you don't want to hear the pit all of the time.

[corpsband]

I understand that there is a sound board operator making adjustments during the show. I actually don't agree with that move. I think the levels should be set, and it should be left to the performers to make the music. If the instruction is solid, and the performers do their job, then the balance should work. As for how to make that happen in different venues, maybe we need to build in some kind of sound check. Its a pretty tall order to predict what a venue will give you in terms of sound, so maybe a minute or two of quick sound check would be appropriate.

Venue is an interesting question. Haven't most corps had several seasons in most venues to "figure out" the local settings? I can understand problems year 1 and year2 but by year 3 I would have expected most of the venue-related issues to have been solved.

I suspect most of the complaints in this thread revolve around the synths. While I think a lot of the representations on here are strongly colored by preference (ie. for some there is no acceptable level of synth volume except zero), even last season there was a bit t-goo in shows that to me seemed over-the-top. I get reinforcing the bottom end for effect but I *don't* get the need to entirely replace 16 to 20 tubas with a bass patch in the synth rattling the bleachers. Those effects weren't accidental or incompetent mixing -- they were quite intentionally overpowering. I don't see the need.

But on the whole I thought A&E was much better last season than the year before. It did take an adjustment on my part to get used to the presence of the synth parts and it also took an adjustment to hearing pit parts throughout most of the program -- pre-A&E pits were featured in parts of the show --not a constant part. Now you may hear them at any part of the production. But the only explanation I have for claims by some that the pit "drowned out the rest of the ensemble" is that the listener's preference is responding with irritation at hearing sounds they feel don't belong. Actual levels were never close to covering the rest of the corps in any show I saw last season. Did t-goo cover tubas ? Yes. But that's not the same as covering the entire corps.

[perc2100]

Venue is an interesting question. Haven't most corps had several seasons in most venues to "figure out" the local settings? I can understand problems year 1 and year2 but by year 3 I would have expected most of the venue-related issues to have been solved.

I suspect most of the complaints in this thread revolve around the synths. While I think a lot of the representations on here are strongly colored by preference (ie. for some there is no acceptable level of synth volume except zero), even last season there was a bit t-goo in shows that to me seemed over-the-top. I get reinforcing the bottom end for effect but I *don't* get the need to entirely replace 16 to 20 tubas with a bass patch in the synth rattling the bleachers. Those effects weren't accidental or incompetent mixing -- they were quite intentionally overpowering. I don't see the need.

But on the whole I thought A&E was much better last season than the year before. It did take an adjustment on my part to get used to the presence of the synth parts and it also took an adjustment to hearing pit parts throughout most of the program -- pre-A&E pits were featured in parts of the show --not a constant part. Now you may hear them at any part of the production. But the only explanation I have for claims by some that the pit "drowned out the rest of the ensemble" is that the listener's preference is responding with irritation at hearing sounds they feel don't belong. Actual levels were never close to covering the rest of the corps in any show I saw last season. Did t-goo cover tubas ? Yes. But that's not the same as covering the entire corps.

I agree 100%.

As for a synth doubling a tuba line, I have mixed feelings. If the synth is adding an interesting color/timbre to the tuba line, then I'm all for it. If the synth is merely doubling the tuba line with a piano patch, or a pseudo-stock bass patch, then I tend to agree that it might be unnecessary. I tend to take it on a case-by-case basis, and I understand that urgency of arrangers to double a tuba line that they're afraid won't be clearly 'read' by the judges/fans because of tuba visual staging. But in general I'd much rather hear a synth, or other electronic element, used as an entirely separate musical voice or effect, rather than just another layer doubling a melodic/supporting line. I imagine that this is more due to the "newness" of synths, and arrangers wanting to give synth players more to do. But even in just the few short years we've had electronics in DCI, we've seen SIGNIFICANT improvement. Look at what Cavaliers did with their synth and Yamaha drum pad last year to create really awesome, unique effects. I think more arrangers will become emboldened to feature electronics more than "include" them (if that makes sense: 'including' them meaning just having them there doubling tuba lines, while 'featuring' them meaning similar to what Cavaliers did last season).

[Mello Dude]

I just thought that I'd bring it to your attention that Drum Corps staff members often include many brass instructors and designers: often as many, if not more, than the percussion staff (especially when you add in that a lot of visual staffers are former brass marching members).

So do you think that the majority of staff members of every single WC corps sit back and let the drummers go crazy with sound and high jack the musical/artistic intent of the musical program of the show?!?

Also, I would guess that most of the Music judges in DCI are also brass players: the GE Music as well as Music Ensemble judges. Are you saying that in addition to the majority of DCI staffers, the majority of DCI Music judges ALSO "let" the drum staffers go crazy blasting the pits, destroying all artistic intent for the sake of sheer volume?!?!

If so, then you CLEARLY know little/nothing about the activity. Judges don't sit back and let percussion guys "destroy the artistic intent of the music" for the sake of turing the amps up "louder and louder" without killing them in music (insert naive people who don't have any connection to modern drum corps other than buying tickets and posting on DCP chiming in with conspiracy theories about how pit balance isn't on the sheets, judges to judge to the sheets properly, etc.).

But really, let's be honest here:

You don't like hearing the pit all the time. You'd rather hear the brass all of the time (which you already do), the drum line all of the time (which you already do), and the pit only when they are being featured. That's fine: opinions are what they are and you're certainly entitled to them.

But don't misconstrue your opinion with some activity-wide conspiracy to destroy artistic intent, just because you don't want to hear the pit all of the time.

Wow, and I thought I made your ignore list...interesting. You act as though I (or anyone other than yourself) have no idea of staffing and the interaction of those instructors and caption heads as it pertains to musical content of a given show. Quite honestly, after going back and reading my posts, the fact that you draw the conclusion that someone knows nothing and that you know everything is rather telling. I am sorry to have to inform you that actually DOING something in the activity FAR outstrips having so-called "friends" and instructors that you know through someone else.

So shall we be frank here?

You (and others) don't think there is an issue regarding balance but, clearly (this means solid facts and not denial), reality and the fact the rule changes have been made speak VOLUMES supporting the contention that there are and have been issues for a LONG time now. I mean you are COMPLETELY free to voice your opinion..but don't come here and try and construe that with facts and reality. Be honest, you don't want to hear anything negative or possibly just the fact that there needs to be changes because it's not working as well as was thought? Again, I have NOTHING against a pit...as long as it FITS tastefully into the entire package..and I don't think many here would disagree with that.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Mello Dude