Almost 40 years of changes at DCI, what do you think are the best 3

[actucker]

I do understand how a mic works. I teach an ensemble that's amplified. Funny we don't have nearly the issues you have in DCI. Yet ripple rolls 3 inches off the bars still come out at 11 out of 10 on the volume slide.. So that's the performers fault?

No.

If you are getting that much volume at piano, then whoever runs your sound has the sound board levels set too high. Again, not a machinery issue, but a staff/instructor issue. I also teach an ensemble that is amplified, and we rarely have balance issues because our front ensemble director does a great job getting the kids to exaggerate dynamics on their own. We give them a little boost so that they can be heard at the loudest volume levels, and during soft moments they play softly enough as not to cover up the ensemble.

[audiodb]

There is a difference between making minor adjustments to a score to make it more effective, and having to write the entire score a certain way in the first place because you know the section you are writing for is incapable of competing sonically with the rest of the group.

Do you think brass arranging is as easy as randomly assigning parts? Do you think each brass subsection can compete sonically with the rest of the group, without any consideration given during arranging?

Name me an instance in which a brass arranger has said at the outset "hmm, the brass line won't be heard over the front ensemble here unless I put them all on unison parts in the high register". Again, you can't because its never happened.

Strawman. Apparently, you have a beef regarding a specific subsection of the pit (probably the marimbas/vibes) that you think cannot be heard amid an entire drum corps fortissimo. The same can be true for specific subsections of the brass, if no consideration is given in arranging, voicing, staging or balancing.

You talk about the speakers as if they are the only thing that you are closer to at the front of the field.

You really love your strawmen, eh?

You don't think that being 100 feet closer to the brass line makes them louder too? You don't think distance affects volume for any of the rest of the corps? Oh that's right. The amplifiers beam the sound directly to the audiences ears at 130DB regardless of what the performers do, or what settings they are set to.

(sigh)

Like I said in the earlier post, it is a combination of proximity, directionality and projection that causes the situation we currently have....one where people at or near the press box may well be hearing the intended balance that you advocate, but others seated in front of the press box are hearing too much amplified sound, and anyone sitting off to the side is getting drastically colored sound from the amps.

Once again, if you think that is a worthwhile tradeoff, then fine....but accept the fact that the majority of your audience is going to hear subpar sound. If it is not a worthwhile tradeoff, then let us discuss our options. Perhaps different speaker locations would help; maybe the whole pit could be relocated; moving the judges out of the press box could induce corps to focus their intended sound balance to a point more centrally located within the audience seating area. Or, in lieu of the above, returning amp balance to a moderate level might be a compromise worth looking into.

Again, I'm not saying that people are always getting it right. But they weren't always getting it right before amplification either. The fact is, amplification isn't going anywhere, and if you don't like being able to hear the front ensemble, just go to DCA shows.

And if the rest of the audience follows your advice, how will that work out?

[actucker]

Do you think brass arranging is as easy as randomly assigning parts? Do you think each brass subsection can compete sonically with the rest of the group, without any consideration given during arranging?

Strawman. Apparently, you have a beef regarding a specific subsection of the pit (probably the marimbas/vibes) that you think cannot be heard amid an entire drum corps fortissimo. The same can be true for specific subsections of the brass, if no consideration is given in arranging, voicing, staging or balancing.

You really love your strawmen, eh?

(sigh)

Like I said in the earlier post, it is a combination of proximity, directionality and projection that causes the situation we currently have....one where people at or near the press box may well be hearing the intended balance that you advocate, but others seated in front of the press box are hearing too much amplified sound, and anyone sitting off to the side is getting drastically colored sound from the amps.

Once again, if you think that is a worthwhile tradeoff, then fine....but accept the fact that the majority of your audience is going to hear subpar sound. If it is not a worthwhile tradeoff, then let us discuss our options. Perhaps different speaker locations would help; maybe the whole pit could be relocated; moving the judges out of the press box could induce corps to focus their intended sound balance to a point more centrally located within the audience seating area. Or, in lieu of the above, returning amp balance to a moderate level might be a compromise worth looking into.

And if the rest of the audience follows your advice, how will that work out?

14 trumpets have a much better chance at competing with the rest of the group than 12 marimba/vibraphones do, that's for #### sure. Go listen to any brass line at full volume, and you'll hear contribution from every voice. That's how they are taught to play. That's why there are a different number of players in each section (designed specifically to balance the brass ensemble).

And like I said in an earlier post. All of those same things (directionality, projection) apply to the brass as well. If you're 100 feet closer to the speakers, you're also 100 feet closer to the brass line. The speakers don't magically override the laws of physics. And the majority of the audience? Really? I've been to plenty of shows since amplification was instated and sat in a variety of different places, and with the exception of sitting directly in front of a speaker about 10 rows back, have never experienced the sound problems that you're referencing. Is it slightly different from place to place? Sure. But it was that way before 2004 as well.

And where exactly do you think the brass is told to focus their sound? Ever heard the term "focal point". Any idea where that is? Of course the best sound mix is going to be in the press box where the judges are. And again, that was the case before amplification too. The focus of the sound has always been toward the judges. Its why the seats closest to the press box are the most expensive, where as at a normal sporting event, you'd pay more to be close to the action. With the nature of our activity, the best seats have always been up high, not only to get the best sound, but to get the best view of the visual program as well.

I understand what you are trying to say, and I'm not arguing that some groups aren't a little overzealous with their volume levels (as I've said in each post). But again, that is not the fault of amplification on its own, which is the entire point I'm trying to make. Removing the amps guarantees a lack of balance. The problem is not the existence of amplification, it is the poor use of it. That doesn't mean we should go back to the way things were, as some here are arguing.

The entire audience won't take my advice because it is only a small minority of people that think its a major problem.

[JimF-LowBari]

Not once have I strained to hear the brass line over the marimbas and vibes. Maybe I'm just not going to the same shows you are.

Or perhaps you want to hear more of the pits than some other people. As a horn person from the pre-pit days I hear more of (DCA unamped) pits than I want to hear. But I'll admit a lot of that is personal preference.

[actucker]

Or perhaps you want to hear more of the pits than some other people. As a horn person from the pre-pit days I hear more of (DCA unamped) pits than I want to hear. But I'll admit a lot of that is personal preference.

And I can totally respect that. But to sit there and tell me that its out of balance or that all balance issues are a direct result of the amps being there is just not correct.

[actucker]

Carolina Crown, Allentown 2009. it's weel documented in the reviews section and may still be on the fan network

I checked out the first video I could find of that performance, and I have to say, I don't hear what people are complaining about. There are two very specific moments in the show where the front ensemble and battery take over, and its so obvious that that was the design teams' intent. At the very beginning of the show, the brass trails off from their idea, and the percussion introduce an entirely new idea and impact with it. A similar moment happens toward the end, where the pit is developing an idea, and out of nowhere, the brass takes over. Again, the intent was obvious. Other than those moments, I never felt like I lost the brass, or even any particular idea in the brass. When there was impact, I could hear a real contribution from every section, including the keyboard instruments. In piano sections I felt like the FE did a good job of tapering their phrases so that the brass lines were not overpowered. Was it perfect? Probably not. But what live performance is. Maybe you have a link to a different video. I'll keep looking for other ones.

I understand that some people don't like these direction design is headed, and want to hear every note the brass ever plays. But none of these kinds of design ideas would even be possible if it weren't for the amplification. That show is a great example of how amplification gives designers much more freedom, from the individual section writing point of view (using more than just metallics in impact moment in the pit), or from a big picture perspective (front ensemble changing the character of the show by impacting with a new idea as the brass decrescendos).

Again, not everyone is getting it right, but I'm having trouble seeing what the huge issue is. I certainly don't see it as a bigger issue than not being able to hear the front ensemble at all when the brass plays above forte.

[audiodb]

14 trumpets have a much better chance at competing with the rest of the group than 12 marimba/vibraphones do, that's for #### sure. Go listen to any brass line at full volume, and you'll hear contribution from every voice.

....if they are balanced.

That's how they are taught to play.

....if they are taught well.

And like I said in an earlier post. All of those same things (directionality, projection) apply to the brass as well. If you're 100 feet closer to the speakers, you're also 100 feet closer to the brass line.

And if the speakers are closer to you than the brass, then the balance changes as you move closer. Sound intensity decays in proportion to the square of the distance from the sound source. Do the math, and you'll see that as you move closer, the proximity ratio works more and more to the pit's advantage.

And the majority of the audience? Really? I've been to plenty of shows since amplification was instated and sat in a variety of different places, and with the exception of sitting directly in front of a speaker about 10 rows back, have never experienced the sound problems that you're referencing. Is it slightly different from place to place? Sure. But it was that way before 2004 as well.

Like you said, we must not be going to the same shows.

And where exactly do you think the brass is told to focus their sound? Ever heard the term "focal point". Any idea where that is? Of course the best sound mix is going to be in the press box where the judges are. And again, that was the case before amplification too. The focus of the sound has always been toward the judges. Its why the seats closest to the press box are the most expensive, where as at a normal sporting event, you'd pay more to be close to the action. With the nature of our activity, the best seats have always been up high, not only to get the best sound, but to get the best view of the visual program as well.

Well, if you truly believe the best sound is up at the press box, then I can't help you. Take it from someone who records drum corps....if the best sound was at the press box, we'd put our mics up there.

I understand what you are trying to say, and I'm not arguing that some groups aren't a little overzealous with their volume levels (as I've said in each post). But again, that is not the fault of amplification on its own, which is the entire point I'm trying to make. Removing the amps guarantees a lack of balance. The problem is not the existence of amplification, it is the poor use of it. That doesn't mean we should go back to the way things were, as some here are arguing.

But it seems that you object to the other options too....

[corpsband]

I checked out the first video I could find of that performance, and I have to say, I don't hear what people are complaining about. There are two very specific moments in the show where the front ensemble and battery take over, and its so obvious that that was the design teams' intent. At the very beginning of the show, the brass trails off from their idea, and the percussion introduce an entirely new idea and impact with it. A similar moment happens toward the end, where the pit is developing an idea, and out of nowhere, the brass takes over. Again, the intent was obvious. Other than those moments, I never felt like I lost the brass, or even any particular idea in the brass. When there was impact, I could hear a real contribution from every section, including the keyboard instruments. In piano sections I felt like the FE did a good job of tapering their phrases so that the brass lines were not overpowered. Was it perfect? Probably not. But what live performance is. Maybe you have a link to a different video. I'll keep looking for other ones.

Beat me to it!

Not only do I agree with your conclusions, the consensus on DCP is that audio recordings tend to emphasize the pit more !!

IMO much of this hullabaloo is the result of preference coloring perception.

Still waiting to hear/see a recording where the pit completely covers a horn-line (unless of course that's the intent of the arrangement or the result of plugging the recorder directly into the mixing board).

Edited March 28, 2011 by corpsband

[charlie1223]

I'm having trouble following your logic. You suggest that A&E was necessary to make drum corps sound more like the popular music of the day. Why was A&E not necessary back in the mid-1960s, then?

Even you seem confused on this, as you admit....

well, I'm not claiming I have the answers. This discussion has been spindled every which way and I just wanted to offer a different perspective in which to approach this subject. The introduction of A&E and the subsiquient change in the way we listen to music and the way music is currently created in this decade.

And what I am finding is that perhaps A&E will be more and more appropriate for the drum corps show as time progresses. There will eventually be a point where we cannot imagine a drum corps show without electronics.

There is something to said that in nearly EVERY niche of music electronics has found its way in. Even on Broadway where live music and theater is its foundation, musicians are being replaced with Synthesizers. I mean, as big as Broadway is, if it can find its way in there, it can find its way in anywhere.

Do you know what this "something different" is?

I don't know what this something is and I don't think those in drum corps know what it is either. There is definitely a push to use electronics in drum corps. We can look back at the A&E proposal and see what their "reasons" were, but I feel that only tells part of the story today. To me, the reasons for the introduction of synthesizers were fairly weak, and in a matter of 2 years why do I find that synths are becoming more and more relevant?

What current music related event can I attend that doesn't have any electronics...symphony orchestras, some marching arts, ballets? I'm talking about no electronics, no mics, no synths... why is that number decreasing??

But again, popular music has been that way since the mid-1960s or earlier.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. Looking at the music selections and approaches to brass performance that have been and still are rewarded today in DCI, it's pretty clear that neither designers nor judges are seeking to replicate the "ear-bud" experience in DCI sounds. The ever-more-neurotic focus on brass balance/blend to the exclusion of all else is quite the opposite of the edgy, often distorted sounds that have given unique character to the popular music of recent decades.

Popular music certainly has had electronics for a LONG time now, yes. but this is the point where we have been experiencing electronic sounds in music for the LONGEST TIME which is different than any other point before now. But I'm not just talking about popular music. I'm also talking about recordings of orchestras and movie score recordings. If I were to hear a piece professionally recorded vs. played live they would be completely different. The use of computers to "correct" the sound has been done for a while, however, again, THIS is the point where we have been exposed to it the longest.

Over such a long period of time one has to wonder what is the "right" way to listen to music? What is legitimate music? Music that is recorded with no tinkering? music that is edited and toyed with, where electronics are blended with acoustic sounds in the studio? Live music?

I mean, we've been exposed to recordings of music, and their edits and synthetic sounds now for YEARS, yes years as you said... today is the longest amount of time we've been exposed to it, which is different than any other time... are we now appreciating that sound over the sound of "live" music? Are we entering a stage where the question is not "how can we make this recording sound live" but "how can we make this live performance sound recorded?"

Just questions... no answers.

Edited March 28, 2011 by charlie1223

[Hrothgar15]

What current music related event can I attend that doesn't have any electronics? I'm talking about no electronics, no mics, no synths...

The symphony orchestra.