BlooContraGuy Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Any corps who is obviously better than a corps participating in the ToC will get their credit. Judges are usually ok at getting things generally correct. Just like always. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craiga Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Any corps who is obviously better than a corps participating in the ToC will get their credit. Judges are usually ok at getting things generally correct. Just like always. BlooContraGuy, I agree with you, and I hope the we both find our confidence in the adjudication system to be borne out by this summer's results. Yes, the judges did show their mettle when they dropped Phantom from 1st place in 08 to 9th in 09.....but, interestingly, they as a group had PR WAY UP during the first couple weeks of 09. It took them five or six shows to get it right.....I guess it took that long for the lustre of the 08 champion to dull. Conversely, it would seem to me that the TOC corps currently in, say 5-9 ranking are really on the spot now....perhaps more than ever. All any one of these corps has to do is end up BEHIND someone like BAC or BK or Madison, and the Emperor's New Clothes will be revealed. Since FIVE of the current TOC 8 have, in fact, been beaten by some of the other 15 corps in the last several years, this could be interesting. I am looking forward to the season with great anticipation....as is the corps I support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Conversely, it would seem to me that the TOC corps currently in, say 5-9 ranking are really on the spot now....perhaps more than ever. All any one of these corps has to do is end up BEHIND someone like BAC or BK or Madison, and the Emperor's New Clothes will be revealed. Since FIVE of the current TOC 8 have, in fact, been beaten by some of the other 15 corps in the last several years, this could be interesting. I am looking forward to the season with great anticipation....as is the corps I support. While I agree that there may be somewhat of a target on the TOC corps, how is that different than any other season where every corps is targeting their immediate neighbors above them? I really don't see how the "Emperor's New Clothes" are revealed at all. What exactly would be shockingly revealed? That last year's 8th place corps can be beaten by last year's 9th place corps? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craiga Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I not convinced that the word "shocking" would apply.....but, the TOC has obviously been touted as "The Elite" etc. in terms of advertising and hype. So yes, if a Madison beats SCV for example, that does make a statement. The question remains, how difficult will it be for an esconced "Elite" drum corps to be beaten by one of the unwashed masses. There IS precedent for this, and we need look no further than the "Top 12" category of the last 4 decades, and how difficult (but not impossible) it was for 13-15 corps to climb into that elite category. It took Boston 27 years (ironically ) to crack the top 12. The number of times that BAC just HAPPENED to place 13th 14th or 15th is unbelievabe. Particularly with the 12 man judging panels that were in place during most of those years, does anyone really think that this was coincidence? Was entrance to the Top 12 was really as "open"as we wanted to believe? Will entrance into the Top 8 be any different? I do not know....but for the sake of the activity, I certainly hope so. The season can't start early enough, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkfdPRphan Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I see it differently. This could have happened if the TOC tour was 8 shows as originally scheduled....... These 8 corps could have really opened the gap with those corps who werent on tour BECAUSE the level of competition could be so fierce between the TOC corps that they work much harder than they would have to beat each other. Those corps who finished 9 through 12 who would have benefited from competing more with the top 4 finishers from last year would not have as many opportunities. Does this make sense? But, seeing the tour has been cut back to 4 shows this TOC tour competition effect might not be as great and one or more of the 9 through 12 corps might well finish in the top 8 at Finals. And good for whoever does! I hope that if this year's tour works out, other corps get that competition chance too! ...but I really dont think that just because a corps is in the TOC they will automatically get more points in their score, but I DO think the competition at the TOC shows will force these 8 corps to BE BETTER than a normal tour schedule would. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowtown Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 Can’t really say until we see but I understand your concerns. I do think that it will effect the seeding order, maybe even against the TOC corps which, would seem likely unless TOC shows are judged (adjusted with bonus points) allowing for this…think spreads and top corps scores when top corps are not there it’s not always fair, it's not always based upon what’s on the field that night, and anyone that thinks it is, hasn’t been around DCI that long. Fuzzy math and funny numbers do happen best not to get worked up over them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 These 8 corps could have really opened the gap with those corps who werent on tour BECAUSE the level of competition could be so fierce between the TOC corps that they work much harder than they would have to beat each other. do you really think corps vary how hard they work during the day depending on who is at the show that night? If there is a drum corps out there that has the ability to work "much harder" than they are currently working, then I would like to see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkfdPRphan Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 do you really think corps vary how hard they work during the day depending on who is at the show that night? If there is a drum corps out there that has the ability to work "much harder" than they are currently working, then I would like to see them. Its not about 'var(ing) how hard they work'! Every corps tries as hard as they can for as long as they can. Its varing the competition they have to meet at a show. But, I believe that a tour show needs a few of last years' top 5 and a few 6-10 and a few 11-20 ranked corps it it. This just pushes a 13 to become an 9 and a 6 to be a 1. IMO, I believe drum corps is just like any sports team - you often play to the level of your best opponent. Not all corps start with the same level of talent but a middle rated corps can push their members to a higher level by being inspired to do so with higher level competition. Or is someone trying to tell me (because I never marched) that every corps competes just within their corps at every show? Removing last year's top finishing corps from the normal tour competition, in my opinion, will change how quickly one or more corps reach 80 points and then 90 points. Not all of the top 8 might benefit from this competition but I believe you get inspiration to do better and to show you are better when you compete with a corps that finished above you last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowtown Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I don’t get where rkfdprfan is coming from at all here I don’t see that gap between 8 and 9, more so considering 2009’s 7th place was last years 9th and last years 10th is surging I could also see the g-8 getting lazy and complacent by being in their own division with their own rules… because for the most part, corps are judged on spreads so once you get into the relativity of competition around, the lower g-8 should be behind in scores also not sure how some of the g-8 corps are going to like being in last place show after show It is just a few shows and I’m sure the g-8 will dictate to all the others where they fit, as they have been doing for years so the normal logical effects with be at the least mitigate and at the worst inflated With the way the G-8 has acted, I can already see a new rule proposal next year that G-8 corps get bonus points because they have to learn extra stuff for their G-8 shows and if the rules don’t favor the G-8 there are against the G-8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted April 1, 2011 Share Posted April 1, 2011 I not convinced that the word "shocking" would apply.....but, the TOC has obviously been touted as "The Elite" etc. in terms of advertising and hype. So yes, if a Madison beats SCV for example, that does make a statement. The question remains, how difficult will it be for an esconced "Elite" drum corps to be beaten by one of the unwashed masses. There IS precedent for this, and we need look no further than the "Top 12" category of the last 4 decades, and how difficult (but not impossible) it was for 13-15 corps to climb into that elite category. Well (to me at least) revealing the Emperor's New Clothes kind of suggests a shocking revelation. I don't think there's going to be any sort of impermeable boundary between the TOC participants and other finalists. I think both the number and the static nature of the TOC corps has more to do with logistics than anything else. The format of the shows sets an upper boundary for participants (based on time) and the need to work out a schedule months in advance dictates that the participants are set in advance of the season. IMO beating a TOC corps will be no harder (or easier) than it was in the past. As for the top 12 / finals boundary, some years it seem there's a clear difference between 12 and 13(or 13-14 or 13-14-15) and some years the difference seems completely arbitrary. I don't necessarily agree there's a conspiracy but I do think sometimes judging comes down to little more than preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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